Track Engine - NA Stroker or Blower LS1

[BlooHAT]

Gday

I was wondering what peoples opinions would be on these two thoughts for the future.

Im considering two things..

1. Twin screw Blower on my cammed ls1 (stock bottom end)
2. Purpose built 402 stroker.

If i decide that circuit is something i want to do (i have a track night on the 24th of may) Im wondering what will be the best engine set up.

Im considering the Blower first, as it should be the cheaper option, but im not sure how reliable the set up would be, and if its something that will work well in a circuit situation.

Maybe i should think along a different line of thought ? Some real world experience would be great. Im not interested in turbo/turbos as ive heard there not great for keep on boost, when you want to use throttle control out of a corner...

Its all just dreaming at the moment.. (I was thinking of selling the ute and getting a dual cab diesel ute, but the missus almost cried, and said NO).

So MORE POWA it is :yep: :bravo: :up2sum:

Dan

[NickS]

I would always go a built engine first, a stroker is ideal. You can always stick some FI on a built motor if you get bored.

I have had a 383ci stroker and a 412ci stroker ... there is nothing quite like cubic inches.

[Aeron]

Yeh, I'd go N/A stroker too. Sure, it'll probably cost more than sticking a supercharger on your current engine, but the stroker is more likely to last longer. If it was for the strip, I?d probably say, bang-for-buck, go for the S/C, but its not. There are heaps of quick circuit LS1?s that are N/A. :yep:

[Kyle]

Look at dunc's old engine in the monaro, i was VERY impressed with it at wakefield at the last trackday!

I say stroker ls1 too, forget boost

My turbo drives me nuts sometimes, no power straight off the mark

[35R]

I went the stroker; we considered the options (for circuit) and supercharger would have issues on/off the throttle so much - you would shred belts and have heat issues. I will try turbo on day though.

[Kyle]

I went the stroker; we considered the options (for circuit) and supercharger would have issues on/off the throttle so much - you would shred belts and have heat issues. I will try turbo on day though.

It's overrated Duncan :yep:

[DaveHAT]

Question Dan ... how long do you intend to keep the ute after "this mod"?

Reason being, FI blower will be easier to remove and re-sell if you onsell the ute later on, whereas a stroker ... whilst very good is effectively dead money when you go to sell the ute, unless you keep your existing engine and do the stroker on a spare.

If that isn't a priority, then good-o :bravo:

I personally would go Intercooled FI as you retain stock idle and shit-tins of power on boost. Given that you're in WA and turbo FI isn't really an option, I would most likely chose a big assed stroker with small streetable CAM to make it nice on a day to day basis.

Smartest option would be get the turbo diesel and piss the LS1 off, but we know that isn't going to happen now is it? :lol:

Good luck with your choice.

[CV860L]

That's a good question Dan as I have been thinking the same thing and am in the same boat (cammed LS1).
I've never owned a supercharged 8 and have always wanted one but am worried about how it may perform in a track situation.
As for turbos I think the heat is a big factor when it comes to thrashing them for long periods, I'm certainly no expert but have owned 3 modded WRX's a BA XR6 Turbo Ute and currently have a tuned Typhoon and although they all make great road cars and great bang for your bucks they don't feel reliable in terms of longevity at WOT.
I had my Typhoon out at Oran Park a few weeks ago and although it performed great it was showing close to red on the temp guage within 5 laps and as with all the turbo cars I've owned the noises coming from the contracting and expanding engine parts makes me nervous, the car feels like it's been thrashed afterwards.
I have been pondering a cast iron block and 427 stroker but that may be stretching the budget more than want so at this stage I think I'm likely to go with a Lunati 408 stroker as it's going to give loads of torque down low which I love in an engine.

I got a bit carried away with my answer but that's my thoughts on the situation..........A built stroker and then when things get boring a Harrop Hurricane 8tb intake system will be the icing on the cake...............

[VooDoo]

The Twin screw will suit both a stocker and later the Stroker as well. Being 2.2L its bigger than all the PWR/Harrop offerings and is more efficient as well so will suit the bigger cubes nicely. Best of all IF you still need more power the 2.2L can be upgraded to the 2.8L core with a simple bolt off, bolt on arrangement although i cant see you getting bored of a 408 + SC and 400+ rwkw any time soon. Belts arent an issue as the wrap over 270 degree's on the pulley. Ill be throwing one of our 2.8's on GTO with my 408 soon so ill let you know if there is any issues.

You will love either but both is better.

hmm. i like that saying, what ya think NickS... No more "Boost is best" the new saying is "Both is Better"

[35R]

The Twin screw will suit both a stocker and later the Stroker as well. Being 2.2L its bigger than all the PWR/Harrop offerings and is more efficient as well so will suit the bigger cubes nicely. Best of all IF you still need more power the 2.2L can be upgraded to the 2.8L core with a simple bolt off, bolt on arrangement although i cant see you getting bored of a 408 + SC and 400+ rwkw any time soon. Belts arent an issue as the wrap over 270 degree's on the pulley. Ill be throwing one of our 2.8's on GTO with my 408 soon so ill let you know if there is any issues.

You will love either but both is better.

hmm. i like that saying, what ya think NickS... No more "Boost is best" the new saying is "Both is Better"

I believe Greg Brindley (vcmsuite.com.au) is trying this combo atm; not having belt issues but certainly some issues with heat (on the circuit) if you consider this option drop him a line.

[BlooHAT]

Fantastic replys guys.

None of the "Just go twin turbos"

Really usefull and helpful replys. Interesting on the thoughts of strokers being dead money, usually anything to do with cars is dead money. Im sure i wont see any of the 15k ive sunk into my ute so far.

I think a built 383, or maybe a built 346 will be great with a blower, depends on the heat issues and belt slippages. Some peoples thoughts are to go with the smaller cubes as they rev quicker, but im unsure if thats more drag related.

I prefur the idea of a motor that only revs to 6k to make the same power as one that revs to 7500...

More thoughts and ideas much appreciated. !

[VooDoo]

I believe Greg Brindley (vcmsuite.com.au) is trying this combo atm; not having belt issues but certainly some issues with heat (on the circuit) if you consider this option drop him a line.


No need mate. Ive designed and built the supercharger and will be retailing it from the new company ive setup (VooDoo Inductions). We are running a huge 1000hp capable frontmount intercooler (yes, with a twin screw, top mount supercharger). Maybe Greg should be calling me :D

[35R]

No need mate. Ive designed and built the supercharger and will be retailing it from the new company ive setup (VooDoo Inductions). We are running a huge 1000hp capable frontmount intercooler (yes, with a twin screw, top mount supercharger). Maybe Greg should be calling me :D

No probs Voodoo, but moreso directed to Blooness, if he is after some feedback on track experience with s/c's

[35R]

Fantastic replys guys.

None of the "Just go twin turbos"

Really usefull and helpful replys. Interesting on the thoughts of strokers being dead money, usually anything to do with cars is dead money. Im sure i wont see any of the 15k ive sunk into my ute so far.

I think a built 383, or maybe a built 346 will be great with a blower, depends on the heat issues and belt slippages. Some peoples thoughts are to go with the smaller cubes as they rev quicker, but im unsure if thats more drag related.

I prefur the idea of a motor that only revs to 6k to make the same power as one that revs to 7500...

More thoughts and ideas much appreciated. !

Blooness, come for a drive in my 438 stroker May 31 (Wakefield) you will be surprised how quick it spins up. Much faster than my stocker 346.

[lautray]

N/A for circuit work. Factor in that you do want revs for circuit, perhaps not 7500 though :shock: . But you don't want a lazy motor either. Dunc used to rev his h/c to 7k all day, no issues. And it felt like it was making power right up there. I wont be revving my new h/c that hard every gearchange, but I'm sure it won't be too far off.

Without bagging the f/i option, I can't see how it would be able to withstand a sustained & prolonged thrashing e.g. a Wakefield open day: 20 minute sessions every hour & at least 7 sessions throughout the day, going 100%? Heat would be their greatest issue.

[FatBoy]

I'd go for a tough 346 cuber and get used to it first. I see plenty of guys with mega hp LS1's and their lap times are a joke. To put things in perspective a dead stock LS1 with exhaust, tune and semi slicks can do easy11's at Wakefield with a half decent driver.

The problem with circuit work is everyone thinks they are a gun but they don't know what a real driver can do until they see their car in someone elses hands - in my case it was a young fella by the name of Warren Luff. I just about sh!t my dacks when he drove my car with me in the passenger seat around Oran Park !! :shock:

Blooness - A tough 346 is all you need until you are sub 10's at Wakefield. Then add FI. Twin turbo, blower, doesn't matter. Just make sure you have made the most of what you have first mate. Look at brakes, rubber, and suspension before worrying about the extra horsepower... ;)

Cheers,
Paul...

[NickS]

It's overrated Duncan :yep:

Maybe on a six ... :up2sum:

hmm. i like that saying, what ya think NickS... No more "Boost is best" the new saying is "Both is Better"

:lol: ... I like it VooDoo. Your new venture sounds interesting, good luck, hope it goes well for you.

Without bagging the f/i option, I can't see how it would be able to withstand a sustained & prolonged thrashing e.g. a Wakefield open day: 20 minute sessions every hour & at least 7 sessions throughout the day, going 100%? Heat would be their greatest issue.

That's one reason I personally wouldn't put FI on a stock (or essentially stock) motor. If I get heat effected it only means the turbo isn't working as well as it could, but I still have 412ci and a VERY strong engine. I would always do the engine before FI ... but that's just me.

On another note, Tuna did a lot of track work in his Gen-TT equipt VX R8, never seemed to be lacking in power.

The problem with circuit work is everyone thinks they are a gun but they don't know what a real driver can do until they see their car in someone elses hands - in my case it was a young fella by the name of Warren Luff. I just about sh!t my dacks when he drove my car with me in the passenger seat around Oran Park !! :shock:

Great post Paul ... I'd just like to remove myself from those that think they are a "gun" driver.

:D

I know I am an above average driver and I can keep the car in a straight line, I'm just not quite crazy enough to push that last 10 - 20% that the big guys can do. Maybe it's having kids at home, maybe it's the knowledge that if I stick it in the wall the repair bill is all mine ... not sure really. I'm never "on the edge" when I'm on the track, and to be honest, I don't really want to be.

Great thread guys, keep it coming.

:cheers:

[35R]

I'd go for a tough 346 cuber and get used to it first. I see plenty of guys with mega hp LS1's and their lap times are a joke. To put things in perspective a dead stock LS1 with exhaust, tune and semi slicks can do easy11's at Wakefield with a half decent driver.

The problem with circuit work is everyone thinks they are a gun but they don't know what a real driver can do until they see their car in someone elses hands - in my case it was a young fella by the name of Warren Luff. I just about sh!t my dacks when he drove my car with me in the passenger seat around Oran Park !! :shock:

Blooness - A tough 346 is all you need until you are sub 10's at Wakefield. Then add FI. Twin turbo, blower, doesn't matter. Just make sure you have made the most of what you have first mate. Look at brakes, rubber, and suspension before worrying about the extra horsepower... ;)

Cheers,
Paul...

Thats good advice. I remember when I first got my H/C, lap times (at Wakefield) didnt drop as expected. Power doesnt necessarily help, and doesnt make you a better driver. The experience thing is a good point, i just didnt know what i was doing (still don't really) but it doesnt stop me having the time of my life trying! I reckon the first mods (if you are dead set circuit keen) only need to be uprated brakes (not necessarily mega dollar ones, just slotted rotors, good pads and fluid) a tune and some track tyres. For commodores a power steering cooler and perhaps some suspension.

Having said all that, most blokes here are going to go on a modification journey anyway - even if they dont go near the track - so it is worthwhile discussing what may be more suited (for track applications). It will be interesting to see how these new blowers go too.

[FatBoy]

Reading my post again i hope that didn't come across too harsh guys, apologies if i did. I wasn't being a smart arse but i'd had a few coldies last night and thought someone had pressed the "permission to speak freely" button... :waving:

What i meant was don't get hung up too much on power figures, concentrate on getting yourself up to speed. Until you reach the point where you can no longer equal or better your previous lap times there's no real need to add more grunt into the mix...

Look at braking marks, apexes, lines through corners etc and try to find a place where you can pick up those precious tenths. If someone faster goes past, follow their lines, see what they are doing differently - you might pick up half a second just by taking a different approach to a few corners... :yep:

Nick - You haven't lived until you're on the edge mate... :yahoo:

Duncan - Funny you say that mate, i had the same experience. I went from a junker carb fed bridgeport (<185rwhp) to a balls out race bridgeport with quad throttle injection etc (250+rwhp) and only picked up 1 to 1.5 secs per lap with the extra grunt. Eventually i went a fair whack quicker again but it was a case of "re-learning" what the car could do and how to drive it. Remember when you add more grunt your braking marks change, as you arrive faster at the same corner, and the whole balance of the car changes as your approach speeds change. Corners i could previously exit flat turned into ones i'd roll the throttle on as i exited instead or it became wheelspin city. Just a few things to consider... :)

BTW - I'm expecting big things from your new combo at Wakefield. Should be bucketloads of fun either way !!

Cheers,
Paul...

[BlooHAT]

Good advice guys.

Tomorrow im getting the camber kit sorted on my ute (seems to be comming loose again) and im looking at getting some negitive camber and caster put into the car.

For me the point of the thread is to find out what engine set up would be ideal in a track situation, if i was ever fortunate enough to do it enough to warrant the investment :)

Keep em coming

Dan

[seldo]

I'd go for a tough 346 cuber and get used to it first. I see plenty of guys with mega hp LS1's and their lap times are a joke. To put things in perspective a dead stock LS1 with exhaust, tune and semi slicks can do easy11's at Wakefield with a half decent driver.

The problem with circuit work is everyone thinks they are a gun but they don't know what a real driver can do until they see their car in someone elses hands - in my case it was a young fella by the name of Warren Luff. I just about sh!t my dacks when he drove my car with me in the passenger seat around Oran Park !! :shock:

Blooness - A tough 346 is all you need until you are sub 10's at Wakefield. Then add FI. Twin turbo, blower, doesn't matter. Just make sure you have made the most of what you have first mate. Look at brakes, rubber, and suspension before worrying about the extra horsepower... ;)

Cheers,
Paul...

I'd agree with pretty much all of that. More power is the very last thing you need for circuit work - just get the tyres, brakes and handling sorted properly first, and then worry about more power later. You will not be able to properly use the power you have at present, so don't go to the expense of adding more at this stage.

[OPPYLOCK]

I'd agree with pretty much all of that. More power is the very last thing you need for circuit work - just get the tyres, brakes and handling sorted properly first, and then worry about more power later. You will not be able to properly use the power you have at present, so don't go to the expense of adding more at this stage.

A third advocate for this approach.
When I took my SV8 to Wakefield I had all the bolt-on stuff and was feeling pretty good about myself rounding up some faster cars..... that was until I got passed by a ZR Celica. It was one of the ex GTP cars but was still a 1.8L front driver. The speed at which he closed in and passed me (on the back straight !!!) was amazing. It really showed the difference between a well sorted track car and road car.
Humbled both my SV8 and my perceived driving ability lol.
If I were planning on using my car for track work I would be buying good seats, stripping out as much weight as possible and sorting brakes, tyres and suspension.

[seldo]

Just to add to this approach, think about the following.... 35 - 40 years ago people like Pete Geoghegan, Bob Jane etc were running Mustangs and Camaro race cars with 500+hp on pure race tyres and doing slower times than a well set-up road car of today will do. And even today's versions of those cars that are going far quicker on "road" tyres are still not as quick as a well set-up GTP car - all simply because our newer cars handle and stop so much better, despite a considerable weight penalty (like 300-400kg). If you then concentrate on fine-tuning the tyres, brakes and handling of your road-car, and make it handle and stop close to that of a GTP car, you will be amazed at the difference in lap times.
For say a $3000 outlay - If you went to the track and did your best time, and then took the car to a respected suspension shop and had it set up properly with the right springs, shocks, alignments, brakes etc, and then took it back you will go probably 2 sec/lap quicker. Spend the same money on power and you'll be lucky to go .5sec faster...

[VooDoo]

Just to add to this approach, think about the following.... 35 - 40 years ago people like Pete Geoghegan, Bob Jane etc were running Mustangs and Camaro race cars with 500+hp on pure race tyres and doing slower times than a well set-up road car of today will do. And even today's versions of those cars that are going far quicker on "road" tyres are still not as quick as a well set-up GTP car - all simply because our newer cars handle and stop so much better, despite a considerable weight penalty (like 300-400kg). If you then concentrate on fine-tuning the tyres, brakes and handling of your road-car, and make it handle and stop close to that of a GTP car, you will be amazed at the difference in lap times.
For say a $3000 outlay - If you went to the track and did your best time, and then took the car to a respected suspension shop and had it set up properly with the right springs, shocks, alignments, brakes etc, and then took it back you will go probably 2 sec/lap quicker. Spend the same money on power and you'll be lucky to go .5sec faster...

Thats why my car is going to Steve @ GSA and they are doing everything from front to back. Coilovers, sway bars, bushes, alignments the lot. If they cant get it handling perfect notbody can. Then ill add 700rwhp too :P

[35R]

BTW - I'm expecting big things from your new combo at Wakefield. Should be bucketloads of fun either way !!

Paul, any chance of getting a few tips for getting around Wakefield quickish? I think i might need some.

[35R]

Thats why my car is going to Steve @ GSA and they are doing everything from front to back. Coilovers, sway bars, bushes, alignments the lot. If they cant get it handling perfect notbody can. Then ill add 700rwhp too :P

Dayum 700rwhp! can't wait to see it completed Voodoo

[235rwkw]

buy tuna's car its ready to race...

a built motor to take turbos. turbos are no good for the track? hardly thats why they banned them in a number of racing categories, 4 cyl and 6 cyl turbos eating up the poor V8's, F1 getting to fast for the tracks etc...

turbo the 8, at the track you set it up to be on boost. cheaper than a stroker for a tuna kit, but will need to build the motor strong if racing all the time.

[Sonny@AutoWerks]

buy tuna's car its ready to race...

a built motor to take turbos. turbos are no good for the track? hardly thats why they banned them in a number of racing categories, 4 cyl and 6 cyl turbos eating up the poor V8's, F1 getting to fast for the tracks etc...

turbo the 8, at the track you set it up to be on boost. cheaper than a stroker for a tuna kit, but will need to build the motor strong if racing all the time.

Tuna;s car is actually a awsome buy as i have driven this car and worked on it & punished it,it has everything possible you could have
.

regards sonny

[cosmo vyss]

Holy Crap, I didn't know it was for sale.

JB

[235rwkw]

yep for sale, long list of bits on it already for $48K

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=75118

just in case your banned on there, i'll copy the add....

One of the most well known Commodores in the country our famous Gen-TTR HSV Clubsport is currently offered for sale to make way for a new range of VE development products and vehicles. Suitable for everyday road use and having proven itself under pure competition conditions, this is an opportunity to own a genuine circuit/drag/dyno/drift car that can hold its own under any conditions
Strip off the stickers and drive it to work

A no-expense spared car to highlight the reliability and peformance or intercooled twin turbocharger kits this vehicle has received the utmost of care and preparation during its development process to ensure that it has always remained 100% bulletproof in its operation
Anyway enough of the talk heres the specs -

NOTE: This vehicle comes with all the stock Coulson HSV Interior and a comprehensive spares kit along with a brand new set of Federal 595RS tyres. All setup/tuning data will be provided

Own this vehicle for $48,500 ONO
Enquiry via PM only

HSV VX R8 SPECIFICATIONS
ENGINE
346ci LS1 all aluminum motor
Rebuilt and fully blueprinted by Rhemac Motors
JE Forged pistons
Eagle conrods
GTS Camshaft
Comp 918 Springs
All new bearings/bolts etc
Multi angle valve seats
GM MLS steel head gaskets
Modified 6 litre sump with gated baffle
Hi volume oil pump
All new belts/tensioners etc
Modified breather system
Engine run on Mainlube 10-60 full race synthetic

TURBO SYSTEM
Gen-TTR Intercooled Twin turbocharger system
HPC coated manifolds
Black Maxx Silicone hoses

EXHAUST
Twin 3 inch exhaust system by Exhaust Technology

COOLING
VZ Radiator conversion with VZ thermos
Front mount engine oil cooler
Pro Series LS1 Power Steering cooler with billet fluid reservoir

FUEL SYSTEM
LS1Turbo Full Pro fuel system
Twin Bosch 044 fuel pumps
Twin entry rising rate fuel pressure regulator
Steel solid fuel lines
All other lines in Teflon braid
Walbro in-tank feed pump
60lb Siemens Deka Fuel injectors
Boost proof CNC fuel rails

TUNING
Full 2 bar speed density operating system
Comes supplied with full race and street tunes for different fuels
(two separately loaded PCMs)

POWER: 485rwkw @ 14psi boost pressure (Summernats 2007)

DRIVELINE
KAAZ LSD Assembly
Harrop rear cover
Textralia multi plate clutch
Blueprinted T56 manual transmission
Ripshift Race version
GTO spec driveshafts and stub axles
3.73 gears

SUSPENSION/CHASSIS
Bilstein “Nurburgring” Edition dampers for Brute ute series
New design adjustable camber front end (up to 4 deg neg camber)
Suspension setup and tuned by Steve Cramp
Whiteline Strut Brace
All urethane bushes
Upgraded castor rods
Larger diameter rear sway bar
CAMS approved Bond Roll Cage

BRAKES
HSV Premium R8 Brakes with low kilometer front rotors
Full EBC Yellowstuff front pads, Redstuff rear pads (both sets new)
SRF Racing fluid

INTERIOR
Velo APEX XL full race seat with head restraints
Gizzmo programmable shift light
Apexi AVCR Electronic Boost Controller (included but not fitted)
Carpeted rear shelf/floor
Helmet net/Cargo area in the rear

WHEELS/TYRES
VX HSV R8 with fresh Federal 595RS semi comp 255/35/18 tyres
(Two sets of rims included but only one set of new tyres)

[FatBoy]

Paul, any chance of getting a few tips for getting around Wakefield quickish? I think i might need some.

When are you heading down there ?? Give me a buzz on 0438 466 118 a day or two before - there's a couple of spots where you can make up some serious time with the right line, and i'd have never found them except i followed Leanne Tander around for a few laps back when she was kicking our butts in Improved Production... :headbang:

If i'm not busy on the day i might come down for a look actually...

Cheers,
Paul...

[NickS]

just in case your banned on there, i'll copy the add ....

AFAIK there are no TC members banned on LS1.

[FatBoy]

Yet... :hide:


:lol:

[saj]

Reading my post again i hope that didn't come across too harsh guys, apologies if i did. I wasn't being a smart arse but i'd had a few coldies last night and thought someone had pressed the "permission to speak freely" button... :waving:

What i meant was don't get hung up too much on power figures, concentrate on getting yourself up to speed. Until you reach the point where you can no longer equal or better your previous lap times there's no real need to add more grunt into the mix...

Look at braking marks, apexes, lines through corners etc and try to find a place where you can pick up those precious tenths. If someone faster goes past, follow their lines, see what they are doing differently - you might pick up half a second just by taking a different approach to a few corners... :yep:

Nick - You haven't lived until you're on the edge mate... :yahoo:

Duncan - Funny you say that mate, i had the same experience. I went from a junker carb fed bridgeport (<185rwhp) to a balls out race bridgeport with quad throttle injection etc (250+rwhp) and only picked up 1 to 1.5 secs per lap with the extra grunt. Eventually i went a fair whack quicker again but it was a case of "re-learning" what the car could do and how to drive it. Remember when you add more grunt your braking marks change, as you arrive faster at the same corner, and the whole balance of the car changes as your approach speeds change. Corners i could previously exit flat turned into ones i'd roll the throttle on as i exited instead or it became wheelspin city. Just a few things to consider... :)

BTW - I'm expecting big things from your new combo at Wakefield. Should be bucketloads of fun either way !!

Cheers,
Paul...

Dan, thats the best advice you could ever get. You would better off spending $1000 on driver traning than more power to start with. Just do your first couple of track days consentrating on geting your lines right and being smooth and when you think your ready you can take mine for a few laps.
Shane

[BlooHAT]

Dan, thats the best advice you could ever get. You would better off spending $1000 on driver traning than more power to start with. Just do your first couple of track days consentrating on geting your lines right and being smooth and when you think your ready you can take mine for a few laps.
Shane

Now thats some insentive !! :shock:

I basically started the thread to get some ideas on what would be better Stroker NA or a Twin Screw Charger on my current package. I highly doubt either will ever happen, just thought it would be an interesting topic to disscuss, and keep my HP dreams alive.

Personally a Twin Screw 402 would be the go.. but thats just silly isnt it :up2sum: :yep: :bravo:

Dan

[NickS]

Personally a Twin Screw 402 would be the go.. but thats just silly isnt it :up2sum: :yep: :bravo:

Dan

Nothing wrong with silly ... :bravo:

[cosmo vyss]

I like both setups. Having said that ther is no substitute for cubes. Big stroker then strap on a blower or a couple of huffers.

JB