Making big power with only 6 Litres

[GTS Listy]

I am trying to work out the best and reasonable budget way how to get a 400rwkw 6L NA engine with the GTS. Is going 8TB intake, high compression, very good flowing heads and a ruggered cam going to work or is this impossible. LS2/L98 engine as a base engine and heads. 98 oct fuel compatible.
I would want good mid range and top end with a good torque curve. Normally you dont see that much rwkw from a 6L engine. Well street one anyway. Some 7L yes.

Any thoughts of what is the best way to do it and what would be the highest rwkw I would expect with a well built touch engine and only 6L. Not going overboard to V8 supercar specks.
As always it will be a every day driver but really in Darwin that does not mean much.

[2 cylinders shy]

Im no expert in this but if you look at the combos that LSX-438 and HSV-105 (both 427+ ci and well north of 25k id think) run. it seems that if you want a reliable (in circuit conditions) combo you would be pushing it to get that type of power from 6lt
lautary has a built motor and makes 330ish out of 6.2lts
Then there is the GMM TK cam/crate engine combos pushing 355kw???
The area under the curve would not be as great though making it harder to drive on the track and less reliable.

This is all theoretical though i have no 1st hand experience because im to poor:)

Ill watch with interest though.

[GTS Listy]

That is what I thought as a base. Straight out GM create engines with a big cam and basic valve train upgrades 350rwkw odd is achievable. Why not 400 with higher compression, good block, very high flow heads and good flow intake.

Should be simple in theory but you would be right about the power range for circuit racing would be difficult to get right and need some special planning.

[drewbytes]

You're not going to make it from 6 litres... 400+ cubes and a 270's odd cam with heads, 8TB etc. $25k++

[VooDoo]

I have a 408 iron block stroker with a 237/242 cam, roller rockers, L98 heads, LS3 manifold and lots of decent internals and should get around 380-400rwkw NA. To get that from a 6L you need to spin it faster so lightweight pistons, decent rods and an even bigger cam, roller rockers and a close look at the valvetrain. Id look at a stroker crank (not too expensive to add as your already changing pistons/rods) bring it to 402. An 8TB setup wont get you much more power but will get some throttle responce back. Very high flow heads arent the only answer as big ports can mean slower air speed so a loss of torque especially down low. I'd also look at sump options too.

To go from 350rwkw to 400rwkw gets expensive. Its a lot harder than going from 250 to 300kw.

Go have a chat to the Russo boys, GMM, Higgins or Powertorque. They know how to built tough engines for your application.

[Delft Maloo]

Id say 350-380rwkw is acheivable in a real aggressive 6ltr setup using good heads and intake
Obviously my opinion will be slightly biased but at least give justin russo a call on 0296073024 or try john(howquick) from sqp in perth to talk about whats needed and what potential is there.
Do they actually do capacity checks to determine if you have a larger bore or a stroker crank?

[.charged.]

I am trying to work out the best and reasonable budget way how to get a 400rwkw 6L NA engine with the GTS. Is going 8TB intake, high compression, very good flowing heads and a ruggered cam going to work or is this impossible. LS2/L98 engine as a base engine and heads. 98 oct fuel compatible.
I would want good mid range and top end with a good torque curve. Normally you dont see that much rwkw from a 6L engine. Well street one anyway. Some 7L yes.

Any thoughts of what is the best way to do it and what would be the highest rwkw I would expect with a well built touch engine and only 6L. Not going overboard to V8 supercar specks.
As always it will be a every day driver but really in Darwin that does not mean much.

If your going to run Improved Production Listy 6 litre maximum mate, you can make that hp....
just need to spend plenty of bucks, big HP NA V8 for circuit use are pricey to build and keep going.

Speak to Scotty Bucton, he will fill you in on how much a big hp circuit engine
costs... ouch:yep:

Listy most of the front running guys have V8 supercar spec motors except their engines are
6 litre not 5 litre and rev to 8500rpm not 7500rpm

If your only doing sprints not racing in a controlled catergory go the biggest cubes possible and less revs.

[.charged.]

Id say 350-380rwkw is acheivable in a real aggressive 6ltr setup using good heads and intake
Obviously my opinion will be slightly biased but at least give justin russo a call on 0296073024 or try john(howquick) from sqp in perth to talk about whats needed and what potential is there.
Do they actually do capacity checks to determine if you have a larger bore or a stroker crank?


Capacity checks will start happening a bit more in IP Ive been told, some fancy pumps like ANDRA use are on order...... If it exceeds the limit... bores and stroke will be measured just like ANDRA does.

[Duffman]

I'm no expert in this sort of stuff, but from what Dunc has told me there really isn't a whole lot to gain from an extra 50rwkw given the added expenditure.

The Russo cars are a great example. Eric's 383 with 330 odd rwkw and Duncan's 438 with 400 odd rwkw. 60-70kw difference yet there times are amazingly close. It would seem that the biggest gains come from car setup and the size of the drivers gonads.

Anyway, thats just something to think about. As I said, I know sweet flark all about this sort of stuff.

[ghz28]

[QUOTE=Duffman;34975]It would seem that the biggest gains come from car setup and the size of the drivers gonads.
QUOTE]

This is effectively what I have been told for my circuit car by my driving instructor. The best gains from cornering speed, stability under brakes and braking as far as the car is concerned, and consistency and smoothness from the driver's standpoint.

Though not trying to compete at the pointy end of IP for instance, I am looking to be as good as I can be with my modestish budget. Given I will be sticking with tyres no wider than 265mm, I have been advised to aim for a reliable engine, that will rev reliably to 7300 rpm (230 km/h in 4th) with good torque from 3000 rpm to allow smooth pull out of corners. I am aiming for a 500-550 HP engine, so middleish 300s kw at the rear wheels.

Cheers,

Garry

[GTS Listy]

8500 rpm that would be something. I was not intending on that sort of rpm. I based the 400rwkw from the L98 GM create which is really minor mods to gain considerable hp. Obvoiusly stepping up from this is more than I was planning.

My thoughts were: L98 GM create 585hp engine $9k with the mods to fit on the GTS, higgens flowed heads $3k, baffled sump $1.5k when that one on LS?? comes out, harrop 8TB $3.5k (bit of looks and bit for throttle responce and cheaper now), new headers/exhaust and tuned $3k. And about $2k labor but I will get assistance with pricing there. Most of this can be done in bits and pieces over a year or two. Still that is $22 000 so it might be cheaper to build one from a stock L98.
That should be in the region of 380rwkw surely. I guess you can add Roller rockers and other bits and pieces to that for additional security.

I do hear you on track set up. Understand that one well. I still run virtually stock HP and my lap times have come down by 12 seconds since I started. Now it is getting harder to get 10s of a second off verse seconds off like before.

[veewhytu]

8500 rpm that would be something. I was not intending on that sort of rpm. I based the 400rwkw from the L98 GM create which is really minor mods to gain considerable hp. Obvoiusly stepping up from this is more than I was planning.

My thoughts were: L98 GM create 585hp engine $9k with the mods to fit on the GTS, higgens flowed heads $3k, baffled sump $1.5k when that one on LS?? comes out, harrop 8TB $3.5k (bit of looks and bit for throttle responce and cheaper now), new headers/exhaust and tuned $3k. And about $2k labor but I will get assistance with pricing there. Most of this can be done in bits and pieces over a year or two. Still that is $22 000 so it might be cheaper to build one from a stock L98.
That should be in the region of 380rwkw surely. I guess you can add Roller rockers and other bits and pieces to that for additional security.

I do hear you on track set up. Understand that one well. I still run virtually stock HP and my lap times have come down by 12 seconds since I started. Now it is getting harder to get 10s of a second off verse seconds off like before.


I would be a bit concerned circuit racing an engine that owed me north of 20k yet was still essentially stock in strength, ie rods, pistons, bearings, fasteners etc...for that sort of coin you should be able to get a strong engine custom built...food for thought :)

[Pulse Red]

For circuit racing I would be more interested in strength and reliability rather than outright power. Something with a dry sump would be nice :)

[Duffman]

Shame you can't go past 6lt. $22000 could get you an LS7 with a big mofo cam and still leave you with change wouldn't it?

[.charged.]

Shame you can't go past 6lt. $22000 could get you an LS7 with a big mofo cam and still leave you with change wouldn't it?

They should change it IMHO, the 6 litre capacity limit isnt relevent now with Commodores coming out with a 6.2L engine, but if the limit went to 7L a lot of the rotor and turbo guys would want some easing of their restrictions. Plus CAMS doesnt really want IP going faster on the tyres they have at the moment..

Eg....the nephews in their turbo cars where hiting over 250kph down conrod straight at Bathurst but the 195/60/14 Yoky 48r they run is H rated to 210kph:shock: , because its a EM car they can only run a smaller tyre with a lower speed rating.

[GTS Listy]

I might do some looking at individual prices of performance parts to build an engine. All the basics anyway.
It is just how I like to do things but I am not keen to go to the performance shops until I have a plan that I want and done more research.

The thought about using a stock engine is that the GTS engine has been fine to date and i have given the poor thing a very hard life like long long highway runs, circuit racing, drags etc. As long as the revs stay reasonable I thought a stocker would be ok. They put big turbos and superchargers on these and they mostly are fine

[FatBoy]

I started a similar thread on LS1 as i was keen on going the same way - modded L98 to stay under the 6000cc limit. Got bugger response unfortunately, apart from Mal over in W.A who is building an L98 powered VN...

I personally think 350rwkw would be "adequate" but wouldn't be as fast as you might think. Especially in a heavy car - i considered L98 into VK for this very reason...

Keep us posted on how you go with this...

Cheers,
Paul...

[GTS Listy]

Last night i had a bit of a look on the net for a few ideas. I can up with this arrangement.

What about going this way about it. Can people check to see if i missed any parts.

Texas speed details straight off the net. All USD except the stuff from aus.

1. Short engine with many higher spec options like lukani etc. Can not see on the web site but basically ticked all full optiions. 370ci block and 6 liter crank.
https://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item.a ... 3&catid=83
Cost $4167
2. Low temp thermostat
https://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item.a ... 83&catid=5
$47
3. Stage 3 Heads and cam package complete with lots of higher spec options that can not be seen on the link. Cam unsure yet but will be circuit racing friendly.
http://texas-speed.com/shop/item.asp
$2207
4. Injectors 46lb
https://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item.a ... 5&catid=10
$419
5. Plugs and leads
https://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item.a ... 2&catid=11
$64
6. Intank walbro fuel pump
$250
7. Plus all the bolt on stuff from the GTS engine, like belts, pullies, radiator, intake etc. That should be enough to get it going again and racing. A couple of weeks off the road.
About $7000 in parts and about $3000 in freight, labor and tuning. Total $10000

From there go the below over a period of time.
1. 8TB intake with gaskets (more for looks)
http://www.harrop.com.au/products/intake_systems.html
$3800
2. Mods to Orsome intake to suit 8TB
$800
3. Harrop tappet covers (or someone else like Voodoos) and coil kit (again bit for looks like the 8TB intake)
http://www.harrop.com.au/products/engin ... overs.html
$1430
4. Baffle sump and high flow oil pump when available from LS??. I am on the waiting list.
$1250 TBC
5. Underdrive pully, small pullies and belts
$350 from same place purchased last time in WA
6. Minipro fuel system and a bit of $ for fuel lines
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=101343
$2200
7. Exhaust twin 3 inch plus headers. Di fillipo
http://www.darrendifilippo.com.au/holden_sys.html
$2500

Add in another $1500 labor/ freight and $500 tuning and that should be it.
Total for second round options $14500.
Total cost it comes in very close to the original idea of the L98.
What have I missed.

People thoughts

[.charged.]

I started a similar thread on LS1 as i was keen on going the same way - modded L98 to stay under the 6000cc limit. Got bugger response unfortunately, apart from Mal over in W.A who is building an L98 powered VN...

I personally think 350rwkw would be "adequate" but wouldn't be as fast as you might think. Especially in a heavy car - i considered L98 into VK for this very reason...

Keep us posted on how you go with this...

Cheers,
Paul...

Sorry for the thread hi jack.... Paul was sort of HP at the wheels does Scotty Bucton Commodore make, I know Clint and Rob siad it was a bit of a jet down Conrod. I think Listy if you could match his HP it would be plenty quick enough

[GTS Listy]

True and some basic specks would be good to know. I think 400 was a little high now, so i will reconsider it. I was talking to a bloke and he reconds in a little while like a few years time they will bring the club racers into line with E85 fuel. Anyone heard this.
I think the supercars are going E85 next year.

[2 cylinders shy]

The other thing you could look at to increase performance without sacrificing reliability is a mm12 gearbox with the closer gearset or even a ppg gearset :drool:

[.charged.]

A gearset in a under 2 litre IP car is a benefit... not sure if a c/r box will help that much

[2 cylinders shy]

A gearset in a under 2 litre IP car is a benefit... not sure if a c/r box will help that much

Do you think the extra torque of a built 6L would negate the benifit?
I know that 5th gear is a killer in my car. With the mm12 you only drop 900rpm as oposed 1600 in the standard T56.
He would have more revs to play with in 3rd (for cornering) and 4th and a snappy 5th to get him to 260odd at the limiter depending on revs.

The PPG straight cut set would be good if went all out for IP

[.charged.]

Do you think the extra torque of a built 6L would negate the benifit?
I know that 5th gear is a killer in my car. With the mm12 you only drop 900rpm as oposed 1600 in the standard T56.
He would have more revs to play with in 3rd (for cornering) and 4th and a snappy 5th to get him to 260odd at the limiter depending on revs.

The PPG straight cut set would be good if went all out for IP

Im actually looking at a albins gearset at the moment for my IP rolla, it has about 4 foot/pound of torque and needs to stay above 6500rpm to stay on the boil. I know for my set its $2500 for a 5 speed c/r with a 1:1 fifth gear.
Mate has a PPG in his 13bp IP car and it cost him 10grand to get built, full dogbox with 1:1 fifth and custom ratios 1-4

They do sound good though:) :yep:

[.charged.]

True and some basic specks would be good to know. I think 400 was a little high now, so i will reconsider it. I was talking to a bloke and he reconds in a little while like a few years time they will bring the club racers into line with E85 fuel. Anyone heard this.
I think the supercars are going E85 next year.

The E85 is good for reducing knock, so a bit more timing can be wound in, its does burn slower so you need 30% more fuel compared to Shell 100 to get more HP. He has tried it on a 6.2 litre merc V12 on his engine dyno. He has tried the e85 on his turbo race car but could get the same benfit as a NA engine.

[35R]

Listy,

Have you got your performance box yet? My advice is to compare some of your GPS laps to someone faster with similar car. Attribute where the time is. You might be surprised.

One of the things i have discovered; power increases do not yield linear improvement in circuit times. It sounds obvious i guess but you can add 20% (say 100hp) relatively easily but that just isnt going to make you 20% faster. Far from it. I think you'll get more from focusing on setup and practice. Just my $0.02

[GTS Listy]

Still not go with the performance box. I have to wait until the next round of buys from the club. I was a bit slow ordering and missed the first order. Should be within a month hopefully. Once i get it I am really looking forward to finding the strengths and weakness with my driving and the car.

Understand with the power vers times but I want to get as much detail and information as possible before i start the engine work. One way or another the engine will be done but in the meantime I am still working on the car set up.

Got a bit of a probable short list going

Trick Flow 225 heads, set them up for solid roller.
mahle pistons w/coated skirt, pins, plasma moly rings, 4032 forged. They are a lightweight piston.
Callies compstar 6.125 con rods
Callies compstar 2.00" journal 3.625" crankshaft, less some rotating mass.
Yella Terra or comp cams adjustable rockers
Comp cams or Morel solid roller link bar lifters

And still working on the rest and as always things might change. I just not sure about the block and still meet the IPRA regs. Little bit hard as aftermarket special makes blocks are a no go for example the LSX iron block (from my reading it anyway.)

Might be reconsidering the manifold now. Head another thing is coming out. Not the Star/Weiland one BTW. Just only heard about it.

This is the section from the regs about the block.

4.2 Block:
(i) The block must have the same number of cylinders/rotors and the same configuration as was standard or available as a manufacturers option for that particular model (eg, in line, horizontally opposed).
(ii) The block must be from the same manufacturer (eg, Ford, GMH, Nissan) as the original car.
(iii) The cylinder block must either be:
(iv) (a) derived from an eligible car as detailed in Regulation 1.1. OR
(b) derived from the same family of engines as an eligible car using identical internal dimensions (with differences only in transmission mounting pattern, minor external casting differences etc). The block type must be clearly identifiable, ie, Nissan SR20DE, SR20DET, Holden Family II, Toyota 4AG series etc. The derived block must be identifiable as being from a mass produced vehicle, not exclusively developed for sporting evolution models produced for homologation purposes in small numbers for competition use only. CAMS will be the final arbiter in determining the eligibility of a block.
(v) CAMS reserves the right to add any engine block at its discretion. Engine blocks included in this definition are: Nissan FJ20.

[35R]

Sounds interesting Listy. btw what about the extra weight of the iron block? Anyway I dont know anything about improved production regs, but i will watch and listen with interest. Goodluck.

[.charged.]

Listy there is a IP website where all the racers and a few of the elegibility officers post on. Gary Cook aka TwinTurbo is the man to talk to about any queries. The IP cams manual is bloody confusing.

heres the site, just sign up and post away, the guys are great and very willing to help.... http://www.techmasters.com.au/forum/


Cheers
John

[choppo]

Listy, funny thread this... are you trying for an IP car?

[FatBoy]

Sorry for the thread hi jack.... Paul was sort of HP at the wheels does Scotty Bucton Commodore make, I know Clint and Rob siad it was a bit of a jet down Conrod. I think Listy if you could match his HP it would be plenty quick enough

Not sure on numbers John - it's an ex Perkins V8 Supercar engine from memory mate, so it'd be north of 600hp on an engine dyno. It's still only at 5 litres too...

As for a close ratio 'box, i can't see how it would help really. The torque of the V8's is enough to keep them on the boil, if the figures quote re the drop in revs are accurate then the added cogswapping would probably negate any performance advantage.

If you want to look at how to set up a mechanically stock car check out the Combined Touring HSV's running in the NSW State Championship - they are very vey rapid for cars that are allowed very minimal mods....

[seldo]

Still not go with the performance box. I have to wait until the next round of buys from the club. I was a bit slow ordering and missed the first order. Should be within a month hopefully. Once i get it I am really looking forward to finding the strengths and weakness with my driving and the car.

Understand with the power vers times but I want to get as much detail and information as possible before i start the engine work. One way or another the engine will be done but in the meantime I am still working on the car set up.

Got a bit of a probable short list going

Trick Flow 225 heads, set them up for solid roller.
mahle pistons w/coated skirt, pins, plasma moly rings, 4032 forged. They are a lightweight piston.
Callies compstar 6.125 con rods
Callies compstar 2.00" journal 3.625" crankshaft, less some rotating mass.
Yella Terra or comp cams adjustable rockers
Comp cams or Morel solid roller link bar lifters

And still working on the rest and as always things might change. I just not sure about the block and still meet the IPRA regs. Little bit hard as aftermarket special makes blocks are a no go for example the LSX iron block (from my reading it anyway.)

Might be reconsidering the manifold now. Head another thing is coming out. Not the Star/Weiland one BTW. Just only heard about it.

This is the section from the regs about the block.

4.2 Block:
(i) The block must have the same number of cylinders/rotors and the same configuration as was standard or available as a manufacturers option for that particular model (eg, in line, horizontally opposed).
(ii) The block must be from the same manufacturer (eg, Ford, GMH, Nissan) as the original car.
(iii) The cylinder block must either be:
(iv) (a) derived from an eligible car as detailed in Regulation 1.1. OR
(b) derived from the same family of engines as an eligible car using identical internal dimensions (with differences only in transmission mounting pattern, minor external casting differences etc). The block type must be clearly identifiable, ie, Nissan SR20DE, SR20DET, Holden Family II, Toyota 4AG series etc. The derived block must be identifiable as being from a mass produced vehicle, not exclusively developed for sporting evolution models produced for homologation purposes in small numbers for competition use only. CAMS will be the final arbiter in determining the eligibility of a block.
(v) CAMS reserves the right to add any engine block at its discretion. Engine blocks included in this definition are: Nissan FJ20.
I won't offer any advice on what to use since I'm not involved in the current scene. I will however cast some doubt on your suggestion to use Compstar crank and rods - I believe they are price-leader el-cheapo versions and I'd be going for something better like either a Callies, Lunati, Carillo, etc. Even more important - I'd get some advice from guys who actually are building engines professionally and have learned the hard way ($$$) what works and what doesn't. I'd speak direct to some of the reputable shops like PowerTorque, Sam's, Street Performance, Maranos, Russo etc.

[GTS Listy]

Listy, funny thread this... are you trying for an IP car?

That is the intention. I want to race in the local class as soon I get the car finished. Weather it will be finished this year or next I am not sure.
Plus the other reason I want have a aim to meet these regs and not have a virtually open car with no limits on mods, just for duttons or supersprints etc. Nothing wrong open cars this is just what I want to do. It would be easier to put a 427 or bigger in it and be done with it.

I want to be sure the gear is good hence why I put the options on here for feedback as long as people dont mind.
It is hard to explain and some will think I am nuts but honestly can not see me going to high end places as I simply will never have that budget. I want to do the best I can on the money I put into the car. It is on a tight budget and it always will be. Not because I can not afford to put more into it, but because I set a dollar amount and stick to that. I will buy bit by bit and get it all build at some stage, get it installed and tuned when a tuner comes to Darwin. Not the preferred option most would take I know. Then again if sponsorship gets better or the $ amount is much much higher that they have told me things would change. At the moment it is all on hold waiting for a few things.
I still very much apprciate everyone feedback and ideas.

[.charged.]

Not sure on numbers John - it's an ex Perkins V8 Supercar engine from memory mate, so it'd be north of 600hp on an engine dyno. It's still only at 5 litres too...

....

I remember Clint and Rob being blown away by the grunt of the faster V8s at Bathurst down Conrod, that Newmans thing is only 5 litres also I think Ex V8 supercar engine too.

We have a few in SA Maros Pacer 600hp(most angry V8 ever, his brother works on Perkins engines), Eldos Torrie 550-600hp but his usually never gets to the end of the meeting... hes had some bad luck.

They had a good idea in the private area of the ip site about what the Commodore comes out with it can run that engine.... Looks like a w427 may be on the books:bow:

[GTS Listy]

I got a price from the usual ls? overseas place.
Is there anything on this list that you would not go near. Ok it is not top of the range but I am talking not on you life and will fail an you are waisting your money
Most of this is midrange gear but still strong. I will get it built somewhere or convince my brother to do it. Point noted as above on the gear but as mentioned if budget allows or sponsorship gets better, the gear will be upgraded to Lunati rotating assembly, heads would go to full higgins race spec and other bits will go up spec too.

Just after some thoughts please.

1. Mahle PowerPack pistons set 4.005" bore 1.314 CH - Includes plasma moly rings
2. CompStar 6.125" H beam connecting rods with ARP2000 hardware -2.000" journal
3. Callies CompStar 3.625 crankshaft 4340 forging – Nitritied -2.000" journals
4. 24x reluctor wheel
5. Clevite 2.00" journal rod bearing set
6. Clevite LS1 main bearings
7. ARP LS1 MAIN STUD SET
8. JP Performance LS2 double row timing chain set (adjustable)
9. SLP Heavy Duty Oil Pump Ls1/Ls6/LS2 (maybe if one does not come with baffle sump)
10. Custom Comp LS1 Custom 254/260 .729/.731 114º LSA (on initial install to get power readings to see what the engine can do and for some drag nights then changed to different spec more circuit focused)
11. Comp cams Endure-X Mechanical Roller Lifters LS1
12. 3/8 "pushords length
13. Comp Cams LS Shaft Mount Aluminum Rocker Arms - LS engine
14. Trick Flow LS1 and LS2 Cylinder Heads, Cylinder Heads, CNC LS2, Aluminum, Assembled, 65cc Chamber, 225cc Intake Runner
15. Setup heads for solid roller application
16. Isky dual springs 240/600 open pressure 2.000" installed height, 1.180 coil bind
17. Mill heads to 60cc - flow sheet included with heads
18. COM5751-040 Cometic LS1/2/6 4.060" gasket bore thickness .040" 2 2.00
19. ARP 12 pt Head Stud Kit, 2004 & up LS1/LS6
20. GMPP Bowtie Valve Covers (eventually upgrade to billet flash ones)
21. Fast 90mm intake with 92mmTB (again upgrade to Harrop 8TB later)
22. MSD Coils and leads with existing PCM, alt, a/c, ps etc
23. 6L Ls2 block 4.000"
24. Misc gasket kits to suit
Just on $11,000US plus freight
Fuel system, surge tank, injectors etc TBA. Upgraded exhaust TBA
Capable of 7500rpm. Est 380+rwkw on 109 oct fuel with current spec cam but more like 350 to 360rwkw with circuit racing cam and 98 oct fuel.

[seldo]

I got a price from the usual ls? overseas place.
Is there anything on this list that you would not go near. Ok it is not top of the range but I am talking not on you life and will fail an you are waisting your money
Most of this is midrange gear but still strong. I will get it built somewhere or convince my brother to do it. Point noted as above on the gear but as mentioned if budget allows or sponsorship gets better, the gear will be upgraded to Lunati rotating assembly, heads would go to full higgins race spec and other bits will go up spec too.

Just after some thoughts please.

1. Mahle PowerPack pistons set 4.005" bore 1.314 CH - Includes plasma moly rings
2. CompStar 6.125" H beam connecting rods with ARP2000 hardware -2.000" journal
3. Callies CompStar 3.625 crankshaft 4340 forging – Nitritied -2.000" journals
4. 24x reluctor wheel
5. Clevite 2.00" journal rod bearing set
6. Clevite LS1 main bearings
7. ARP LS1 MAIN STUD SET
8. JP Performance LS2 double row timing chain set (adjustable)
9. SLP Heavy Duty Oil Pump Ls1/Ls6/LS2 (maybe if one does not come with baffle sump)
10. Custom Comp LS1 Custom 254/260 .729/.731 114º LSA (on initial install to get power readings to see what the engine can do and for some drag nights then changed to different spec more circuit focused)
11. Comp cams Endure-X Mechanical Roller Lifters LS1
12. 3/8 "pushords length
13. Comp Cams LS Shaft Mount Aluminum Rocker Arms - LS engine
14. Trick Flow LS1 and LS2 Cylinder Heads, Cylinder Heads, CNC LS2, Aluminum, Assembled, 65cc Chamber, 225cc Intake Runner
15. Setup heads for solid roller application
16. Isky dual springs 240/600 open pressure 2.000" installed height, 1.180 coil bind
17. Mill heads to 60cc - flow sheet included with heads
18. COM5751-040 Cometic LS1/2/6 4.060" gasket bore thickness .040" 2 2.00
19. ARP 12 pt Head Stud Kit, 2004 & up LS1/LS6
20. GMPP Bowtie Valve Covers (eventually upgrade to billet flash ones)
21. Fast 90mm intake with 92mmTB (again upgrade to Harrop 8TB later)
22. MSD Coils and leads with existing PCM, alt, a/c, ps etc
23. 6L Ls2 block 4.000"
24. Misc gasket kits to suit
Just on $11,000US plus freight
Fuel system, surge tank, injectors etc TBA. Upgraded exhaust TBA
Capable of 7500rpm. Est 380+rwkw on 109 oct fuel with current spec cam but more like 350 to 360rwkw with circuit racing cam and 98 oct fuel.I don't see too much wrong with your list except as previously stated, I'd use better crank and rods - esp if you are talking about spinning it to 7500rpm... For the sake of $2000 you might lose the lot....
Also - you might find that you won't get much valve lift with pushrods only 3/8" long...;)

[saj]

There are much better heads and manifolds around than the Ls1 or Ls2 that would probaly work out cheaper in the long run than porting LS1-2 stuff and getting a Fast manifold.

[Delft Maloo]

if you going a 6ltr block id at least go some l98 heads and manifold and them port them if you still want.

Do you really need the h beam rods? iv been told that unless your pushing some sort of additive(boost,n2o) resulting in higher cyl pressures all the h beams would do is add extra rotational weight to the crank and not let it spin as freely as it could. Meaning that a high quaility light weight i beam would be better, so im told.

[35R]

I might have some russo ported L92 heads with matching L76 intake if you are interested.

[GTS Listy]

Cool. All good info. I will revisit a couple of things and look around.

This is a running list so no buying just yet. I will be in a few months or less so if things are around for sale I will be shopping for sure, I guess maybe second hand too. Thanks for the offer anyway.

[GTS Listy]

Also I have never seen cam specks like this one he quoted me. Any idea what it would be like with things like idle, taking off and where the power will be. My guess would be a bit of a pig down low but come on real stong right to the top RPM.
The numbers seem high and the lift seems huge compared to what I have read when people do cam changes
Custom 254/260 .729/.731 114º LSA

[GTS Listy]

The new engine plans is on the backburner now due to the cost of gear from the US. Just going for a basic cam and intake upgrade. Basics like cam, valves, in tank fuel pump, 36lb injectors, ARP bolts top and bottom, lifters ,SLP high flow oil pump, duel row chain and get the oil baffle put in (i may do this one earlier). Tim from electronic automotive will be here mid march for the tune but I will get collecting gear in the meantime. I will get all the data and analysis gear connected then too so I know WTF is going on with the engine

I am looking at going for a 232/234 with a lift in the 600' and 110 or 112 lsa.
I was going to get some 4.11 diff gears too to counter the higher power range on this cam so it will be best utilised at Hidden Valley circuit and drags. I am going the harrop hurricane mid year for FUN when Tim from Electronic automotive comes up for the supercars. It is a waste I know but it will be usefull in the future with the new engine when it happens.

Would this combo work ok.

[VooDoo]

8 TB setups wont give you any power just better throttle responce. Talk to Choppo or JusticeR8 (Darren) as they have some opinions there.

[GTS Listy]

8 TB setups wont give you any power just better throttle responce. Talk to Choppo or JusticeR8 (Darren) as they have some opinions there.

I know that one and some of these guys including the rep at Harrop said it is a waste for a stock motor and I do agree. The gains will come in the future but I want to make it pretty sooner than later. I do want the car to look good too and have some standout feactures.

The main question is will 4.11 diff gears be ok. Theory is higher power band on the bigger cam then lower the gear ratio to make best use of it.

[VooDoo]

Personally i wouldnt go to radical with the cam. You can make awesome power with a smaller cam plus you dont loose anything down low, it will idle and not drink fuel as bad. Bigger cams will need a higher CR to work with as well which means pistons, heads etc. The diff gears are the last thing you need to worry about. Use what you have and trial it before commiting to more $$ when it isnt needed. I have a 408 stroker with 237/242@114 cam and still use 3.73's. Anything higher and it just goes up in smoke and you cant get traction. Plus you need more gear changes to get down the straights rather than just relying on torque.

Either that or just fit a nice twinscrew blower (pm me about that hehe)

[GTS Listy]

I remember reading about the compression ratio increace helps with bigger cams but not allot of information on that on forums or results from testing. That is something I might do and see what the difference is with a head shave. Not allot of cash to do that either. I would love a supercharger but I think in the long term the final engine combo will be a goodie. I am going back to square one with that plan.

Cheers for the ideas about the diff. One thing at a time.

[VooDoo]

Sounds like you need to sit down with an engine builder, tell them what the goals are and what you have then get a real plan. Guessing things like CR's and shaving heads then hoping for the best is an expensive way to do it. Real quality advice and a destinct plan is worth every cent even if you have to pay for the advice.

[HSV-105]

8 TB setups wont give you any power just better throttle responce. Talk to Choppo or JusticeR8 (Darren) as they have some opinions there.

Please explain further Stu.

[VooDoo]

Maybe i should have clarified

Harrop 8TB's dont make any more power. Ive been told the same thing by Powertorque and plenty of people that have owned them. They look the goods but the TB's are too small to make any real differance. No idea about the stuff you use but they arent exactly common for street use like Harrops. Darren park spoke to me about TBA's setups when i was working alongside him for a while and we looked carefully at the TB sizes as the harrop was hitting a wall plus had a few vacume issues (bearings leak air)

If this is wrong so be it, im just going on what reputable workshops have advised me as well as owners. They bought them, they didnt make any more power when retuned. If you have other info Mark i'd love to hear it as i'd love a 8TB setup but not if its just for looks.

[ghz28]

Very sagely advice from Voodoo above.....talk to an engine builder and map out what you want.

I did that, and for me, my 6L is now almost ideal for the QR track and my car and ability.....car is much better than me. ;)

From my data I knew that I needed good pulling power from 3000 rpm in third to get me out of turns 3 and 6 with no sudden "on the cam or on boost now" occurrences as the throttle is gradually opened at high lateral G coming on to the straights.

I also noted that I will need to rev to 7000 rpm in 4th gear on the back straight (about 230 km/h).

I have ended up with a nicely balanced package, more than 420 ft/lb torque from 2300 rpm up (about 480 odd at 3000 rpm) with peak power at 6500 rpm. That combination makes it tractable when needed out of the slower corners, and balances nicely with it pulling very hard to the braking point into turn 1, and enough power to pull to near 7000 in 4th before the braking point for turn 3 down the back straight.

A lot of expert advice was sought from people knowledgable about QR and the vehicle requirements, and for a modestly powerful engine it has transformed how the car handles the track.

First outing with the 6L my front straight speed is up 19 km/h to 201 km/h, my corner exit speed from turn 2 is up 13 km/h from 126 to 139 km/h (exit is full throttle in 4th at those speeds and set to where the V8 cars touch the ripple strip on the exit of the turn.) Lap times didn't fall all that much as I was way out on my normal braking points as you can imagine, but still a half second quicker on the short circuit.

So like Voodoo says, think carefully and analyse any data you currently have, and work out likely rpm points where you want good smooth torque coming out of turns, and decide how hard you want to rev it....that determines to a significant extent how much the engine costs.....and try for max HP somewhere near where you want to rev it to.

Oh and if you intend playing IP, remember you will be limited to the rather mediocre A048 Yokohamas for the next three years at least so your traction budget is not going to be all that high, especially if you have become used to RE55s or similar. As an example, my ute was 2.9 seconds quicker around QR when I changed from A048 to RE55s with nothing else changed.

So there is a lot more to it than just building a 6L with a heap of power when you want to go circuit racing.....drag racing.....not so important.

gh

[HSV-105]

Maybe i should have clarified

Harrop 8TB's dont make any more power. Ive been told the same thing by Powertorque and plenty of people that have owned them. They look the goods but the TB's are too small to make any real differance. No idea about the stuff you use but they arent exactly common for street use like Harrops. Darren park spoke to me about TBA's setups when i was working alongside him for a while and we looked carefully at the TB sizes as the harrop was hitting a wall plus had a few vacume issues (bearings leak air)

If this is wrong so be it, im just going on what reputable workshops have advised me as well as owners. They bought them, they didnt make any more power when retuned. If you have other info Mark i'd love to hear it as i'd love a 8TB setup but not if its just for looks.

No doubt the Harrop has little more than cosmetic value and I have experienced it first hand - A bit more bling for Listy but no power.

But to generalise the performance of all 8TB set ups based on the Harrop road car 8tb manifold is misleading.

The 8TB manifold on my GTO was good for 650rwhp out of a 7 Litre engine.
Do you think this would have been possible through a conventional single throttle body manifold Stu ?

[VooDoo]

My appologies mark, as usual you are correct but most of us mortals only really get to play with Harrop 8TB's not the gear you have.

IM sure someone could workout the CFM required for 650rwhp from a 7L engine and convert that back to airflow via a 92mm TB to see if its "thoretically" possible. Im betting its not. I know a 38mm 8TB setup and a 50mm 8TB setup (from memory) wasnt capable either. I did play with the 62mm 8TB setup with the injectors outside the butterflys but didnt have an engine capable of using it.

[HSV-105]

My appologies mark, as usual you are correct but most of us mortals only really get to play with Harrop 8TB's not the gear you have.

IM sure someone could workout the CFM required for 650rwhp from a 7L engine and convert that back to airflow via a 92mm TB to see if its "thoretically" possible. Im betting its not. I know a 38mm 8TB setup and a 50mm 8TB setup (from memory) wasnt capable either. I did play with the 62mm 8TB setup with the injectors outside the butterflys but didnt have an engine capable of using it.

No need to belittle me in your response Stu.

I just don't like seeing boolshit being spread where others are relying on this place for information.It is TrackChat not StreetWank after all.

I'll share my good and bad experiences every day of the week if people want to listen.

8tb's aside what does the blower flow Stu in the same application and is it available yet ???

By memory the Harrops were 48mm and 55mm.

[GTS Listy]

8TB bling for Listy is about it. I still believe I will make it useful in the future but not the concern right now. I think the Harrops ones are 52 and 55 but either way not overly importiant right now.

Gary thanks for your feedback on that. I have done some similar information gathering from the EFI live against the video record hence the reason I thought 4.11 would be useful. Some sections are short very high rpm 3rd runs (like 6800rpm for 2 seconds on the limiter but I dont do that but could if I want to get those few extra 10ths.) and others I am not in the power range in low 3rd gear but way too high in the rpm in second and there is 2 corners like that. 4.11 would lift the rpm and get me in 4th for those bits. Extra pull out of corners would be usefull too. I have pretty will settled on that cam would be good providing the 4.11 were used and the extra cog utilised in those sections.
It is only a cam so it it does not work just chance it as all the other cam upgrade stuff is all done.

[VooDoo]

Far from it Mark, your cars are something i only wish i could emulate and there was no intention to belittle in any way. My appologies if it was read that way. I'm only going off information supplied to me by workshops and those that have done it themselves.

Blower flows 980 cfm @ 15000rpm constant with a rating of 1000hp from the factory and no we arent retailing it atm.