I want to master Heal and toe

[GTS Listy]

I have always struggled to get the heal and toe thing going with downshifting. I did some measurement of my pedals and from the brake to the accelerator it is about 90mm. I have tried to practice but the brake seems too high under full pressure and the accelerator too far away and i can not do the blip.
I have ordered in a set of Sparco racing pedals with the extra bit on the accelerator. I was also considering getting the brake pedal lowered and bending the brake lever over a bit so it is closer.
Is this ok to do .
I know people say you can do this with stock pedal arrangement but my foot has to be on a near 90 degree angle to reach the accelerator to the the blip.

I would like to know peoples thoughts and idea. I will get some photos going with the current set up and with the new pedals installed.

[BOMI]

Mate there are some great videos on Youtube that you should look at. Just type in Heal and Toe and youll get some awesome V8 Supa car H&T footage.

Also, like anything you oonly get better with practice, you should, IMHO do the following.


1. Do some lower leg stretches such as Achilles tendon stretches, Gastrocnemius (Calf muscle) and the Tibialis (Shin muscle) this will help with your flexability in the lower parts of your legs and also improves your Proprioception (Knowing where your body parts are and controling what they are doing)

2. Practice H&T in your car with it not running, this will get your muscles and brain heaps more switched on now that your muscles and Tendons are warmed up.

3. Then get out on the road and H&T every where you drive, even when going to the shops.


Please try this and you will find your feet more nimble over and around your pedals and that you are far far better at H&T.


Troy :)


NB: I have my CERT III in Personal Training through work :D

[seldo]

Mate there are some great videos on Youtube that you should look at. Just type in Heal and Toe and youll get some awesome V8 Supa car H&T footage.

Also, like anything you oonly get better with practice, you should, IMHO do the following.


1. Do some lower leg stretches such as Achilles tendon stretches, Gastrocnemius (Calf muscle) and the Tibialis (Shin muscle) this will help with your flexability in the lower parts of your legs and also improves your Proprioception (Knowing where your body parts are and controling what they are doing)

2. Practice H&T in your car with it not running, this will get your muscles and brain heaps more switched on now that your muscles and Tendons are warmed up.

3. Then get out on the road and H&T every where you drive, even when going to the shops.


Please try this and you will find your feet more nimble over and around your pedals and that you are far far better at H&T.


Troy :)


Agreed. It's also a good idea in the initial stages to go to something like a deserted industrial estate on the weekend and drive round and round practising. In the initial stages you will probably see a few un-planned emergency stops so it's best not to have any traffic around. Also, whilst it may sound strange, I found that in one particular car I was racing I just couldn't do it comfortably until I ended up mastering a Toe'n'Heel instead. Again - requires practise to perfect, but I used to brake with the heel of my foot and use the toe to tweak the throttle. A bit unnatural feeling, but ok once you get the hang of it.

[GTS Listy]

THere is some great U tube vids but they are with the pedels all so close togeather. I will get some photos of the pedels in the GTS once I get the sparco one fitted and go from there.
I will say I have tried sitting there in the car for a fair bit and I simply can not reach the accelator when the brake is depressed. Thied in work boots, racing shoes etc but no luck. The idea is there but it is either my foot/ankle flexibaility or the pedal set up.
I shall try again and do some of the advice given above

[PSI38L]

you can look at fitting a Auto brake pedal, they are much wider, helps close the gap.

[Scotty]

I have always struggled to get the heal and toe thing going with downshifting. I did some measurement of my pedals and from the brake to the accelerator it is about 90mm. I have tried to practice but the brake seems too high under full pressure and the accelerator too far away and i can not do the blip.

I have also tried with little success... looking forward to seeing how the pedals go etc...

[seedyrom]

I found that in one particular car I was racing I just couldn't do it comfortably until I ended up mastering a Toe'n'Heel instead. Again - requires practise to perfect, but I used to brake with the heel of my foot and use the toe to tweak the throttle. A bit unnatural feeling, but ok once you get the hang of it.

:dunno: Whoops, I thought that's how its done, and how I do it.

Albeit badly :D

[35R]

you can look at fitting a Auto brake pedal, they are much wider, helps close the gap.

Hmm, brilliant idea!

Easy to do?

[BOMI]

Hmmmmm I have not seen a manual cars pedals of late but.... Lets say that the avaerage foot is a size 10, say about 22cm, are you saying Listy that your brake and go pedal are over 22cm apart, surely you can get 1/4 of your foot (toes) on the break and whatever is left on the go pedal??


Troy :)

[NickS]

When I had a Subaru WRX I had it nailed, it was very easy and I could do it perfectly ... almost 7 years later and I still can't do it with Commodore pedals.

:swear:

I don't think Holden could have made it much harder ... the auto pedal is an interesting idea.

[BLACK1]

Have a fabricator or handy welder cut and bend and reweld the throttle shaft to get it closer to the brake pedal
Works a treat
Will post a photo of the mod if someone can show me how

[GTS Listy]

Hmmmmm I have not seen a manual cars pedals of late but.... Lets say that the avaerage foot is a size 10, say about 22cm, are you saying Listy that your brake and go pedal are over 22cm apart, surely you can get 1/4 of your foot (toes) on the break and whatever is left on the go pedal??


Troy :)

The front of your foot on the brake pushing it through the firewall, then move my heel across about 30 to 45 degress and I hit air. It is a far as i can move it over without taking pressure off the brake pedal. I will get my racing boot on and do some photos tonight. I think it may help seeing the issue. I have size 16 feet so it should be a piss easy in theory.
Photos first up when i get home.

[BLACK1]

Photo of modified throttle shaft

253

[BOMI]

The front of your foot on the brake pushing it through the firewall, then move my heel across about 30 to 45 degress and I hit air. It is a far as i can move it over without taking pressure off the brake pedal. I will get my racing boot on and do some photos tonight. I think it may help seeing the issue. I have size 16 feet so it should be a piss easy in theory.
Photos first up when i get home.



Shit, size 16!!! :eek:

Man I dont know where you are going wrong then. Sorry.

Post up those pics and it might show why.


Troy :)

[BOMI]

Photo of modified throttle shaft

253


Thanks for the pics mate, I cant tell the difference LOL Not something I look at every day, ill go have a look at mine later.


Troy :)

[Hazza]

Listy. You are not alone. It is primarily Holden's placement of the accelerator pedal in relation to the brake pedal. The accelerator pedal is far too low and a bit to far away to the right. I ended bending the accelerator pedal up and left a bit so now when the brakes are depressed the accelerator is almost level (depth wise) with the brake pedal. Piece of cake now.

Black1's way of rewelding is the best way as mine might bend back to how it was eventually.

[GTS Listy]

Black 1 that is the stuff. Great set up and workable. If after the mod there is still the option of the auto pedal.
We are progressing here. Cool.

[BOMI]

Black 1 that is the stuff. Great set up and workable. If after the mod there is still the option of the auto pedal.
We are progressing here. Cool.



Awesome stuff mate :thumbs: But im still confused as to how you cant reach it properly with size 16 feet :lmao: :hide: Sorry.....





Troy :D

[35R]

Awesome stuff mate :thumbs: But im still confused as to how you cant reach it properly with size 16 feet :lmao: :hide: Sorry.....

Troy :D

Troy i think the problem more relates to the height of the pedals (being mismatched)

[GTS Listy]

Righto lets work through this.

Basic stock pedel layout
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk77/HSVListy/Healandtoe012.jpg
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk77/HSVListy/Healandtoe001.jpg
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk77/HSVListy/Healandtoe013.jpg
Foot on the brake as per normal
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk77/HSVListy/Healandtoe005.jpg
The normal move accross to blip the accelator with foot hard on the brake
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk77/HSVListy/Healandtoe006.jpg
and I miss both by reach and height.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk77/HSVListy/Healandtoe007.jpg
Even twisting my ankle and leaning it over using a tiny bit of the foot I still miss.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk77/HSVListy/Healandtoe009.jpg

[GTS Listy]

Some general photos
This is with the brake pushed down by hand after starting the car up so the vaccume is as per normal.
Standard height again
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk77/HSVListy/Healandtoe013.jpg
and depressed as hard as I could by hand. The pedal does not move by much so I tried the same with my foor and it was no different
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk77/HSVListy/Healandtoe014.jpg
The stock layout.
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk77/HSVListy/Healandtoe011.jpg

People thoughts and ideas. I am thinking making a new accelator pedal linkage, sparco foot pedal covers with the extra bit. I will need to adjust the heights somehow as the way it is does not work.

[Hazza]

Listy. Can you get your foot to 45 degrees? Cause your foot should be alot more angled sideways than almost straight updown when heal and toeing? That will take care of the lateral distance, but the depth is a huge problem as the pedals need to be more or less level when angling your foot that much.

[GTS Listy]

Listy. Can you get your foot to 45 degrees? Cause your foot should be alot more angled sideways than almost straight updown when heal and toeing? That will take care of the lateral distance, but the depth is a huge problem as the pedals need to be more or less level when angling your foot that much.

That is as far as I can go. Streched to the limit sideways. I am pretty cramped in the car and my knee sits between the steering wheel and the door trim and has about 1cm each side. I can not move my knee around at all. It would be all angle in the ankle.
Should I be able to move my ankle 45 degees. Seems a long way accross.

[Hazza]

Ah yes I see. That makes sense if you can't angle more because of no movement space for your knee. To angle your foot to 45 degrees, your knee will need to move/point inwards a bit so that you can angle your lower leg outwards so your heal is more to the right than where it is now. Hard to describe with words but if you try just sitting in your computer chair you will see what I mean. If you don't have the ability to move/point your knee inwards then yeah you wont get any more angle on your foot. In which case like you say, you will need to move the accelerator alot closer to the brake pedal and a bit higher by modifying the bracket.

[BOMI]

Hazza I was going to say the same thing :yep:

So Listy your knees are fairly bent thus stopping you from twisting your foot enough to H&T?

Also, can you send me a PM with you wearing nothing but those red racing boots, I loved the pic where you can see your hairy legs :lmao:

Kidding mate, the pics helped me understand your probs in H&Ting.


Good luck mate.


Troy :)

[Scotty]

I know it won't sort the horizontal distance...

but how about adding a rubber pad to the accelerator to raise it to the height of the brake pedal?

[GTS Listy]

I know it won't sort the horizontal distance...

but how about adding a rubber pad to the accelerator to raise it to the height of the brake pedal?

Another good idea. I could add in a piece under the new pedals. I will use the stock one for everyday stuff and the new sparco ones for track days so easy to do without legal things coming into play

[VXGTS]

Im with you listy, ive tried to H&T in my VXGTS and you pretty much have to have the brake pedal fully depressed to blip the throttle. The brake pedal sits too high i think. Definately not so good when cruising round the burbs to jump on the anchors HARD just to blip the throttle. I got over it, but let me know how you go. Id be keen to know how you get around it in the end.

[seldo]

Another good idea. I could add in a piece under the new pedals. I will use the stock one for everyday stuff and the new sparco ones for track days so easy to do without legal things coming into playIt's also pretty easy to make up an alloy "tang" to screw to the accelerator pedal to extend it towards the brake and upwards.

[GTS Listy]

Just wondering how far other brake pedals move from no brake to full brake. Mine as per the photos is bugger all. Like 3cm. I like it but does not help the issue.
I am leaning towards a complete new, custom bent to suit, accelerator linkage to the pedal. Just use the same material and it would be fine. Just bring it closer and raise it.

[.charged.]

It's also pretty easy to make up an alloy "tang" to screw to the accelerator pedal to extend it towards the brake and upwards.


Plenty of guys I race with have done this and seems to work a treat and its a cheap and easy mod... will take a few pics tommorrow for you Listy, Clint has this setup on his accel pedal

[seldo]

These may be of some assistance
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Heel-Toe-Double-Clutching_57431.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPj9XXW25GA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoZeuSgEj4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMur6TPkrM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSyrqEnE4&feature=related
You will note that in most cases the driver doesn't need to get his heel fully onto the throttle - just a bit of a kiss on the side of the pedal. The trouble is if you bring the throttle too close to the brake, you run a very real risk of accidently hitting the throttle just when you really really don't need to....:shock:

[GTS Listy]

Some good vids there. I can use them as some direction to where to put the accelerator pedal. The supercar one seemed to be really good positioning and only needed a slight move of the ankle.
Thanks

[Stevie_D]

I circuit raced my VY SS ute at Eastern Creek a few times in '04 and I could only reach properly when I had my Colorado boots on- but I have a size 13 stomper which probably helps too.

Heel toeing down into 4th gear coming into turn one was :eyes:

Maybe the auto brake pedal might help a bit too.

[NickS]

After reading this thread I realised I had never tried it in the VE ... so I spent the week heal + toeing in the wagon ... it's SHIT LOADS easier in the VE than it was in anything I have driven VT-VZ.

A little difficult in R M Williams boots but it's a piece of piss in anything else.

Good to see Holden fixed it up ... :woot:

[GTS Listy]

Little bit of informaiton. When i used the nissan for racing heal and toes was easy as so I can do it just that I dont have enough room in mine.

I found a way around it looking at the V8 supercars do it. Get the new style supercar gearbox then you dont need a clutch and you leave one foot on the brake and one on the accelator. No such thing as heal and toe anymore on the supercars
That really takes some of the excitement out of watching these pros at work. That makes the supercars all to automatic in my opinion.

Thoughts

[nefariousls1]

Listy all i did with mine in my maloo was to pull the whole peddle out, weld the pin more securely to the shaft and then with a vice bought the peddle up to beside the brake and at a level where 50% brake see's the throttle and brake peddle flush, makes it mych more fun to drive and is a laugh with people who dont know its there and stab both not paying attn

Can get pics if u want tomorrow

Cheers Aaron

[choppo]

Hey Listy,

might be of help.... ???? Nice and easy, 4 screws and a bit of aluminium ;) The brake and loud pedal are even height with foot hard on the brake - i think i might have bent it up a bit


http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr107/choppo21/Image013.jpg

http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr107/choppo21/Image016.jpg

http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr107/choppo21/Image017.jpg

As an aside, i heel 'n toe slightly different, i end up using the side of my foot, not the heel as such. So it really comes down to what works best for you.

The trick is to do it all day everyday in your car. I went to a advanced driving day at Amaroo when i was 17 where they showed me how to do it... done it every since as it makes driving a bit more 'fun' on the street too.

Bit hard in my Rodeo though, the pedals are just too far apart and im not bothering to turn them into a race set up :D

[GTS Listy]

That is a good way of doing it. Both ideas actually as per above.

I will give it a go choppo. I would have to use the side of my foot too as I have no room to move my leg or knee around. BIG loud pedal. Excellent

Cheers

[ShylanMotorsport]

I have 2 more options.......

1) The Finish and Sweedish rally drivers in the old days used to get there ankles broken and refused so that there foot was pointing in......meaning they did not have to twist there foot as much because it was always twisted...

2) In the Gemini we have the Sparco pedal kit.....however i left foot brake and dont worry about the clutch....it is very hard to get used too because the pedal pressure feels so un natural on the left foot...and the timing of the throttle and the shift is everything so you dont break the box and doesnt take extra time......its hard but it works.....

[ShylanMotorsport]

Did I manage to kill this thread???????
Sorry!

[GTS Listy]

I dont have a car yet to test out and I can easily heal and toe in the nissan it is easy as.

[ShylanMotorsport]

When are you expecting the car back mate?

[GTS Listy]

When are you expecting the car back mate?

Couple of weeks. THe transprot company has been booked. They just need to pick it up. Monday or Tuesday they recon then 10 to 12 days to get here