Brake options

[Pulse Red]

Being a track based forum I thought I would ask for some experiences and opinions for replacing the stock brakes on my Monaro. After a little run through the twisties on the weekend I have decided that before I give my car any more power I must do something about the brakes. On my car they are woeful.

I am after something that gives a good improvement on the street and can be used for some light track work. I am also wanting something that looks the goods behind 5 spoke wheels.

I am looking to do something in the new year and there seems to be 4 options that provide BFYB in varying degrees. After the harrop kit the price seems to skyrocket. The options in my research seem to be:

1. Better pads (Greenstuff or Ferrodos seems to be the go) with stock size DBA 4000 discs and better fluid. Not good for the looks but at around $800 if you hunt around great BFYB.

2. PBR PK1 kit now with the twin pot C6 calipers from the VZ Monaro. 330mm discs with 2 spot front calipers and the 315mm rears on stock calipers. Pads, fluid and brake lines are also included. Talk of $1900 but RRP is $2500

3. AP Racing kit from Race brakes. 4 spot AP Calipers on the front with 330mm discs pads and lines. No rear kit pieces in the kit. $2750 for the front only. I believe they also sell a rear kit based on the stock calipers with 315mm discs and better fluid for $800.

4. Harrop street performance kit. 343mm slotted discs all round with 4 spot calipers front and rear plus pads. $3995 for the kit. This is the most expensive but has the most hardware for your money. However I have heard some negative comments about the kit as far as BFYB goes.

What are peoples thoughts on these options? Anyone wish to offer advice based on their experience with these brake setups?

[35R]

If you were unconcerned with looks, i would try the OEM sized DBA4000 or 5000's with the uprated pads, excellent value. Given they are OEM sized, if they don't come up to expectations, at least you can use them until they wear out before spending thousands on something better. I found this combination fine for the odd track day. But I did chew through the rotors.

Harrop Street performer; I would steer clear. We spent hours trying to make the pads fit (with Harrop and Just brakes swearing blind they would slot right in). In the end I had to spend a lot of time altering the pads to get them in, and even now when the caliper gets hot i get a horrible loud resonating sound. I have swapped a lot of emails with Harrop but they are not interested. The older street performer harrop kit required the 16mm pads, but the new version takes 18mm, so straigth off the shelf (supposedly).

Anyway a few weeks later I get an email from Just Brakes, & they couldnt even get the OEM Bendix pads to fit! (on the harrop kit) so I tink Harrop have some quality / tolerance issues with this kit.

If I had to do it again, and I most likely will within a year or two, I would try the AP Racing front kit, but spend a few hundred more on the DBA5000 with say a dba4000/5000 OEM sized (solid) rear with uprated pads.

[Scotty]

I would have to say it is worth considering the CSC kits.

I have the 355 front and 343 rear and they are awesome everywhere...

Adrian had a few laps in my car at wakefield and he had this to say...

The brakes on your car were awesome. Very powerful... a little difficult to get used to the feel... but smooth and confidence inspiring. I should have been braking later than I did with those stoppers.

Note that I chose to use carbon ceramic pads at the track and see how they went on the street... so far no dramas...

[35R]

I would have to say it is worth considering the CSC kits.

I have the 355 front and 343 rear and they are awesome everywhere...

Adrian had a few laps in my car at wakefield and he had this to say...



Note that I chose to use carbon ceramic pads at the track and see how they went on the street... so far no dramas...


Scotty, i will certainly be looking at CSC in the future.

What sort of money are the kits and replacement rotors?

can you use a DBA or RDA replacement rotor or are they CSC made only?

Also, do they take off the shelf pads or are they custom?

thanks

[Scotty]

Dunc,

I will ask Nick from NVU to come over and answer some of the questions or confirm my answers.

This is the blurb that Nick sent me when I bought them. Note that prices may or may not have changed.


Good afternoon Scott

Thanks for your email regarding the CSC Engineering brake packages.

Now size of the rotor is dependent on the size, style and offset of the alloy wheels you have on your vehicle.

17? alloy wheel
330mm
343mm (depending on style and offset)

18? alloy wheel
330mm
343mm
355mm (Depending on style and offset)

19? alloy wheel
355mm
365mm
378mm
381mm (Depending on style and offset)

Now all CSC Engineering 4 and 6 piston brake packages come with the following as STANDARD no extras or hiding costs.

Some of the features of these brakes are

*High Strength Two Piece aluminium Calipers Heat treated and hard anodized
*Differential stainless steel piston sized to minimize pad taper
*High Tensile Fasteners (nickel plated)
*Cast billet mounting brackets
*2 piece Rotor design with lightweight centre aluminium adapter
*Racing derived rotors with directional curved vane ventilation
*Rotors come standard with curved 24 slot design
*Direct bolt on replacement for most commodore models (VB-VP Require hub adaptors)
*Used standard master cylinder
*Uses standard brake lines (With ADR approved brake lines available)
*Two colours on offer for the Caliper colour Red or Black which are no cost options

CSC Engineering Front 4 piston Brake package
We have a special at the moment for the 355mm 4 piston package which is $2750 (normally RRP is $3300)

Which including the following

*CSC Engineering 4 Piston Calipers
*355mm rotors
*All rotors are Two Piece with aluminium hats
*Caliper mounting brackets
*Full set of pads
*Bolts and washers to suit.

For any size rotor upgrade (on the 4 piston package) (total package price)

365mm x 35mm thick rotors $3500
378mm x 35mm thick rotors $3850
381mm x 35mm thick rotors $4100

CSC Engineering Front 6 piston Brake package
We have a special at the moment for the 365mm 6 piston package which is $3950 (normally RRP is $4250)

*CSC Engineering 6 Piston Calipers
*365mm rotors
*All rotors are Two Piece with aluminium hats
*Caliper mounting brackets
*Full set of pads
*Bolts and washers to suit.

For any size rotor upgrade (on the 6 piston package)

378mm x 35mm thick rotors $4400
381mm x 35mm thick rotors $4650


CSC Engineering Rear 4 piston Brake package
We have a special at the moment for the 343mm 4 piston package which is $2650 (normally RRP is $2950)

Which including the following

*CSC Engineering 4 Piston Calipers
*343mm rotors
*All rotors are Two Piece with aluminium hats
*Caliper mounting brackets
*Full set of pads
*Bolts and washers to suit.

I hope that?s not to much information (if you have any other questions please feel free to ring me directly on 03 9466 1011)

Cheers Nick

[Scotty]

I am unsure about replacement rotor costs... but I am sure Nick can clarify that.

The pads are

Bendix
DB439 Front
DB440 Rear

I have an email somewhere from Ferodo I think... who confirmed they have pads that fit these.

The pads are the same as the ones used in Porsche

http://catalogue.bendix.com.au/ReverseLookup.aspx?SetRefNo=db439

I will also find out the specs of the carbon ceramics I use...

[dattoman]

AP 4 pots for the win

There should be a rear kit available..... Brute utes have it on them
315mm disc with AP 4 pot caliper
I have sold these before for late Commodores
About $2300 from memory
So essentially $5k should get you front and rears in AP

[PSI38L]

personally i would go the AP kit, some places do a version with dba 5000 series, DS2500 pads,dot5.1 APR fluid, Braided lines, ADR Approved $3150.00 Front only.

I have this on my VYII SS ute and its great.

[Sonny@AutoWerks]

I would certainly give the thumbs up to the "CSC" kit as i have fitted a set to my car and they are awsome ! Duncan i have fitted 6 sets of harrop sreet performers and never had an issue with pads fitting ? U sure you got the right pads ?

regards sonny

[35R]

I would certainly give the thumbs up to the "CSC" kit as i have fitted a set to my car and they are awsome ! Duncan i have fitted 6 sets of harrop sreet performers and never had an issue with pads fitting ? U sure you got the right pads ?

regards sonny

Pretty sure Sonny. Checked several times with Harrop and Just Brakes. Also apparently Just Brakes had issues fitting the OEM Bendix pads to their kit as well. Sonny, did you ever have to linish the pad backing plate for the harrop kit?

[NickS]

Really sorry you have had so many issues Dunc ... especially as I told you how great the kit was :hide:

My Harrop Street Performer kit is slightly older than Dunc's and I haven't used it on the track. In terms of street use, they are fantastic ... 1 million times better than the factory brakes. They were easy to fit, the pads slotted straight in, they don't make a sound ... at all.

Clearly all the kits aren't the same ... hope you get yours sorted Dunc.

[Nickh]

Scotty, i will certainly be looking at CSC in the future.

What sort of money are the kits and replacement rotors?

can you use a DBA or RDA replacement rotor or are they CSC made only?

Also, do they take off the shelf pads or are they custom?

thanks


Scotty asked if i could assist with some of the questions so here goes (btw great forum)

Replacement rotors range from $440-$990 per rotor eg the 343mm rotor is $440 and the 381mm rotor replacement cost is $990 and our most common rotor 355mm is $495 each

All our replacement rotors come std with the 24 slot design as the orginal package.

As far as we are aware DBA and RDA dont have any replacement rotors to suit our CSC packages.

As for pads these are pretty easy to obtain and point you in the right direction if required.

As for pricing for our packages scottys post has a breakdown of whats involved and whats included.

If you require anymore information please feel free to contact us on 03 9466 1011

[Febs]

A while ago I was looking at brake upgrade options, and I came up with three options:

1) Pad and rotor upgrade. $150ish for some decents pads (Ferodo TS2000's, Greenstuffs etc..), $600ish for 4 rotors, plus some fluid and a few hours of your time...call it $800 all up. I did this to my VS Acclaim (Bendix Ultimates, DBA slotteds in standard size) and the difference was amazing. I still maintain it stops better with this upgrade, than my VX Calais did with the stock brakes (even though the VX has bigger rotors and twin piston calipers).

2) PBR PK1 kit. $1,900 at the time (you might still be able to bargain some Repco's down to this price), but $2,600ish now.

3) Better - 4 piston Harrops, APs, etc... Big $$$ - unfortunately too big for me. :(

I ended up going with option two, but ONLY because I bought the kit from my mate for under $1k (plus fitting).

Is it worth $2.5k? No. Worth $1k? Yeah, that's about what it's worth IMO.

Driving around the suburbs...under 80km/h, you can't feel any difference at all IMO. Feels just like the stockers. 100+, and on a racetrack (which is the reason I upgraded) - then there's a big difference (in fade and bite). I believe Dave had similar experiences with his kit (which is essentially the same).

Personally, if in the same situation again I'd either do the pad/rotor/fluid upgrade for under $1k, or go all out with some Harrop Street Performers, CSCs or whatnot. The PK1 kit just isn't worth $2k IMO. Even at Wakefield, I had them fading a bit after a few laps (still got the standard PBR pads, but I've got a set of TS2000's waiting to go in).

(They do fill Dunc's wife's old 17" Statesmen rims out very nicely though :))

Cheers,
- Febs.

PS: I also went for some Motul RBF600 fluid (as advised by Sonny), but unfortunately I can't tell you how much of a difference this made on it's own, because the kit and fluid all went in at once.

[Sonny@AutoWerks]

Pretty sure Sonny. Checked several times with Harrop and Just Brakes. Also apparently Just Brakes had issues fitting the OEM Bendix pads to their kit as well. Sonny, did you ever have to linish the pad backing plate for the harrop kit?

To be honest Duncan,all the kits i done including nicks went straight on,the only trouble i had was wen we were fitting nick's coupe 4 harrops,we had a few issues,though i have replaced several hsv brakes with the harrop calipers and again no issues,though some did have tight fitting pads,but dont forget to use the anti seize so the pads slide smoothly.

regards sonny

[35R]

To be honest Duncan,all the kits i done including nicks went straight on,the only trouble i had was wen we were fitting nick's coupe 4 harrops,we had a few issues,though i have replaced several hsv brakes with the harrop calipers and again no issues,though some did have tight fitting pads,but dont forget to use the anti seize so the pads slide smoothly.

regards sonny

I got an email yesterday from Just Brakes; they have been chasing it up with Harrop (visited them yesterday). I'd rather not speculate atm but i think we might be close to resolving it. I have spoken with a few people since and it seems the harrops have been "hit and miss" for a while now. That's just hearsay but, perhaps related to why HSV dropped them?

Anyway regarding the anti-squeal shims, we couldn't get the pads to fit with them on. The pad width (with the shims) was 19mm; the advertised width (for the harrop caliper, to accommodate the pad) is 18mm. I had the Russo boys confirm i wasnt going crazy; I had to put a lot of work to get the pads to fit; which really gave me the irrits. So in the end, I had to sand the pads down *and* file the caliper backing plates, it took ages.

[Sonny@AutoWerks]

I got an email yesterday from Just Brakes; they have been chasing it up with Harrop (visited them yesterday). I'd rather not speculate atm but i think we might be close to resolving it. I have spoken with a few people since and it seems the harrops have been "hit and miss" for a while now. That's just hearsay but, perhaps related to why HSV dropped them?

Anyway regarding the anti-squeal shims, we couldn't get the pads to fit with them on. The pad width (with the shims) was 19mm; the advertised width (for the harrop caliper, to accommodate the pad) is 18mm. I had the Russo boys confirm i wasnt going crazy; I had to put a lot of work to get the pads to fit; which really gave me the irrits. So in the end, I had to sand the pads down *and* file the caliper backing plates, it took ages.

I could undertsand ur frustration duncan,i guess as long as its gettin sorted,all parties will be happy :)

regards sonny

[RedVYIISS]

I've done a 'minor' brake upgrade:

RDA slotted rotors (front), std size
Ferodo TS2000 pads (f & r)
Caltex GP 600 Racing Brake Fluid
rear rotor machine

It's an improvement over stock, however is still inadequate for a high Hp auto car. I've not set out to 'test' the brakes, however a little spirited driving testing the new auto trans had them stinking hot and smoking.... and that's on the street.... they'll be a severe limitation on the track, how much, only time will tell.

Cost was $845 supplied and installed by B & R Brakes at Castle Hill.

[RBS MATT]

Being a track based forum I thought I would ask for some experiences and opinions for replacing the stock brakes on my Monaro. After a little run through the twisties on the weekend I have decided that before I give my car any more power I must do something about the brakes. On my car they are woeful.

3. AP Racing kit from Race brakes. 4 spot AP Calipers on the front with 330mm discs pads and lines. No rear kit pieces in the kit. $2750 for the front only. I believe they also sell a rear kit based on the stock calipers with 315mm discs and better fluid for $800.


The above is a good option and is becoming popular but another option also for the budget conscious is to run the twin piston C4 caliper on a set of 330mm rotors as well and this can be done from $1150.
Race Brakes Sydney now offer a new molycarbide slotted rotor for the rear which is vented as well and replaces the stock solid disc with no other modification needed.These new rotors are also up to 30 % lighter and are also stronger and longer lasting.

[Pulse Red]

The above is a good option and is becoming popular but another option also for the budget conscious is to run the twin piston C4 caliper on a set of 330mm rotors as well and this can be done from $1150.
Race Brakes Sydney now offer a new molycarbide slotted rotor for the rear which is vented as well and replaces the stock solid disc with no other modification needed.These new rotors are also up to 30 % lighter and are also stronger and longer lasting.

What are your thoughts on the C6 Monaro/PBR package as a budget upgrade? A few places I have been speaking to about the DBA/pad upgrade have said this isnt bad value if you can get it at the cheaper price?

Sort of going off what was written in the other thread and making sure no one thinks I am putting down any of the products mentioned, with myself it is not so much about the actual money and more about making sure I spend the money on mods that I actually use. I really did want the bigger brake package but as my car only sees a few 1000km a year as a street it seems I will not use the braking power offered by the big kits. What are your thoughts? Will the average street car benefit from a big 4 piston all round brake kit?

[Aeron]

RBS MATT will be doing my brakes in about 2 months time.

I'll be getting...

Front:
AP Racing 4 piston callipers
330x32 DBA5000 rotors
Braded lines
Race Brake Pads

Rear:
AP Racing 4 piston callipers
315x28 DBA4000 rotors
Braded lines
Street/track pads

Then the thing should stop :D

[BOMI]

Another thread I somehow missed!?

A very good thread :thumbs:

I ran DBA400 6x6 Wiper slots with Ferrodo TS2000's and I rated this combo highly.

Oh, I was running Castrol Super DOT 4

These Rotors copped a Caining at Eastern creek as Dunc, Hethro and Eric can verify. 4 Glowing Rotors :eek:

I stuffed the front left rotor twice br running the pad to metal on metal at Wakey. I'm now running DBA standard Slotted Rotors, with bendix Ultimates.


Troy :)

[RBS MATT]

What are your thoughts on the C6 Monaro/PBR package as a budget upgrade? A few places I have been speaking to about the DBA/pad upgrade have said this isnt bad value if you can get it at the cheaper price?

Sort of going off what was written in the other thread and making sure no one thinks I am putting down any of the products mentioned, with myself it is not so much about the actual money and more about making sure I spend the money on mods that I actually use. I really did want the bigger brake package but as my car only sees a few 1000km a year as a street it seems I will not use the braking power offered by the big kits. What are your thoughts? Will the average street car benefit from a big 4 piston all round brake kit?

As said before not everyone has the same driving style and car as well as budget.The basic upgrade is slotted rotors and performance pads and this will cost about $740 for the parts to do front and rear on a commodore for example using DBA slotted rotors and Ferodo T2000 pads.
The PBR PK kit with the C6 330mm slotted rotors and the rear with a single piston 315mm vented and slotted rotor can reduce your braking by up to 20 mtrs and will decrease your braking temperature.This is an effective kit for someone who doesn't want to go over the top.
Down the track we could supply AP Calipers and brackets to fit the rotors if you get more serious.
The AP kit will benefit the average street driven car because the larger brakes will not get as hot and the caliper will not flex like a sliding caliper would and also the stopping distance can be of benefit as well.By just fitting slotted rotors and better pads with a higher temp rate and slotted rotors it helps dissipate the heat and helps take the glaze off the pads therefore reducing the chance of brake fade.

[DaveHAT]

Matt,

Question re: supply only of the AP calipers and bizzo to suit 330mm front and 315mm rear rotors, roughly how much crinkle ($) needed to acquire a set of those?

Thanks, Dave.

[RBS MATT]

Matt,

Question re: supply only of the AP calipers and bizzo to suit 330mm front and 315mm rear rotors, roughly how much crinkle ($) needed to acquire a set of those?

Thanks, Dave.

This is something we have just started looking at so i would say about $4000 AP calipers front and rear with pads and brackets only for VT - VZ.
Is this to suit the pbr kit or rotors you have as front rotors can be 28mm or 32mm thick

[lautray]

Was told by someone in the know that to use AP front calipers you need the 330x28mm... the 32mm of PK1 no good.

[DaveHAT]

This is something we have just started looking at so i would say about $4000 AP calipers front and rear with pads and brackets only for VT - VZ.
Is this to suit the pbr kit or rotors you have as front rotors can be 28mm or 32mm thick

That's correct Matt, current brake arrangement I have is 32mm rotors as mentioned.

Is what Mr Heads and CAM above says correct? AP requires 28mm rotors?

[RBS MATT]

Was told by someone in the know that to use AP front calipers you need the 330x28mm... the 32mm of PK1 no good.

The common kits sold only use a 330mm x 28mm thick disc correct and we sell this as one of our most popular options and is very effective.AP Racing do make more than one caliper type in there series to fit 28mm 30mm 32mm thick rotors. We have on many occasions adapted a particular caliper to fit the thicker 32mm disc for road ,rally and track work.