H/C or Powerdyne

[Bermudablue]

Just dropped my car in for exhaust and 3.7's
Sonnys got a powerdyne kit sitting there(brand new,with extras)like a
6psi pulley,water injection,a small cooling tank,fuel pump,2 bar map sensor etc
all i would need is some injectors,and a pretty good drive in drive out price
He showed me jezzab's dyno chart and it was pretty impressive.
Up to 700nm's of torque which seemed to drop off right at the end.
What are your thoughts on this.
Im old school and a H/C package is more my go but some convincing may change my tune.
Also i heard i may need an engineers certificate on this.Is that true
Any opinions are welcome,positive or negative.
He knows i will be asking questions here so feel free:)
A 3000 yank would also be on the cards at a later date

[Pulse Red]

There are some really detailed posts on this kit on ls1.com.au and v8owners.com.au (I hope I dont get in trouble for that one). Lots of reading and hands on experience with this kit. Definately worth a read. I think the owner of a certain Red Monaro on here has a bit of experience with this kit to :up2sum:

From everything I have seen you may be better off going down the path of Heads and cam and I know said member was much happier with this choice. I will let him speak for himself though. All I will say is I think the current mods to his car are awesome! :bow:

[BOMI]

Nope you wont get in trouble for mentioning other forums mate. We are not as full on as SOME ppl, its JUST a car forum, not world Politcs :lmao:

Troy :)

[NickS]

Nope you wont get in trouble for mentioning other forums mate. We are not as full on as SOME ppl, its JUST a car forum, not world Politcs :lmao:

Troy :)

:werd: BOMI

Personally I would go Head & Cam ... superchargers just don't do it for me. I hear a supercharged car and think ... MEH. I hear a head & cam car and think ... OMG :drool:

Also I would listen carefully to what Sonny has to say about each, make sure you tell him exactly what it is you want ... don't be shy. As Daniel (I think it was Daniel ...) said, LS1 has some great info on both setups.

Good luck :cheers:

[Pulse Red]

Nope you wont get in trouble for mentioning other forums mate. We are not as full on as SOME ppl, its JUST a car forum, not world Politcs :lmao:

Troy :)

I respect you guys for that, unfortunately that doesnt seem to be the case at V8owners going by a few posts. Enough of that though its just that I recall Duncan?s very detailed thread on the powerdyne kit on V8owners. Very informative.

:werd: BOMI

Personally I would go Head & Cam ... superchargers just don't do it for me. I hear a supercharged car and think ... MEH. I hear a head & cam car and think ... OMG :drool:

Also I would listen carefully to what Sonny has to say about each, make sure you tell him exactly what it is you want ... don't be shy. As Daniel (I think it was Daniel ...) said, LS1 has some great info on both setups.

Good luck :cheers:

Good memory Nick! I also agree, make sure you give Sonny all the details of what you want out of the car, unlike alot of workshops he is a good listener!

[Bermudablue]

Nope you wont get in trouble for mentioning other forums mate. We are not as full on as SOME ppl, its JUST a car forum, not world Politcs :lmao:

Troy :)

Nice to hear free speach is still available in this country right here!:)

[SSUte01]

If I can offer my two cents. PM sent also

Tony,

I personally would go the heads and cam path over the PD for a few reasons:

The heads and cam package will perform more or less the same day in and day out, summer or winter, night or day. Having never actually fitted the PD I sold mine back to CAPA brand new for a loss due to 'my' (I stress my not everyone's) dissatisfaction with the marketing and promises made to 'me', I cannot conclusively comment how the PD goes on a hot summers day, but I would almost bet a lefty that the similarly priced H/C combo on the same vehicle would have its number - What do you think Dunc ;)

The PD is a basic entry level FI setup designed to improve performance on a stocker and IMO it would do a fantastic job of this. For those that remember the difference the first time their car was tuned compared to std tune. I dont believe it is suited to a well setup bolt on car ie full exhaust and intake perhaps TB. Using ball park numbers here - 190rwkW for a stock LS1 with exhaust, 240rwkW with MAFless tune 260-280rwkW for street cam (220 ish duration) and heads and 300+rwKW for a little crankier setup (230+ duration) with heads

All that said I feel that the PD is backing you into a bit of a corner and frankly I may get flamed for this but a 2 bar setup should not be tuned on anything but a 2 bar MAP sensor and tune - I believe it can be done sucessfully and safely but it is still a compromise using a 1 Bar setup

In summary, if you wish to have a 270ish rwkW car under average weather conditons that may suffer quite a bit in the heat - am speculating here anyone can chime in here and that is as far as you would ever want to go then spend your $5-6000 and have a well tamed FI streeter with more than enough punch, just make sure you get over the fact that you need injectors and tune for the package to be 'right'.

Alternative is the heads and cam package that isn't as well tamed, but oozes character and performance under all conditions, probably costs a little less, no insurance issues (if you in fact have any to start with) and provided it is tuned correctly will not use much more fuel than the PD.

PD Pros

- It is blown:D
- It is very well mannered
- Can be removed relatively easily

PD Cons

- Basically you're at a power limit
- Will suffer at least somewhat in the heat
- $$$
- Insurance ??

H/C Pros

- Sounds as good as laying one on Jessica Alba
- More character than Robin Williams on Speed
- As awesome as Mr T (can't get more awesome than that)
- Cam comes on strong and stays til redline
- Heads boost low down torque immensely
- True all weather performance
- Still have a plethora of choices if you want 'more'

H/C Cons

- Fuel consumption
- Missus may not like to drive it anymore (maybe that's a pro :p )
- Not really able to be removed if you sell the car....why would you want to


That's all I can think of at the moment. I am trying to be as impartial as possible and serious apart from a couple of DH:stupid: comments. In all honesty it comes down to what you want. If you want FI and want the performance of a small/mild cam with stock manners and never want to go any further go PD, otherwise go with the tried and true.

Worst case scenario is you dont want to end up with the old 'if only' syndrome fit the PD, tune it try it either like it and keep it or rip it off and sell it and lose about $2000 through tune and depreciation and then go H/C at least you will know for yourself or perhaps try and find someone with a kit and go for a ride.

Hope this was of some help

Keep us posted

Luke

[DaveHAT]

:werd: BOMI

Yer Nick !!! :bow:

Tony,

I'll 3rd the comments on free speech @ trackchat, zero self promotion will be entered into.

As said by Luke and Nick I wouldn't bother with the powerdyne. 700nm can be achieved with a good N/A setup (trust me).

In summary (& in saying this I have never had an FI setup) but from the multitudes of info that I have read (esp in regards to the PD kit) as far as I am concerned, forced induction does NOT work well unless intercooled...

IMHO I would direct the dollars to maybe CAM and stall + heads if funds permit. However if you do decide to go with the PD kit I know where there's an unused water injection tank and pump ready for the buying .... :werd:

EDIT: To sum up for you Tony, fastest E/T on a PD kit that I'm aware of is 12.1 @ 118mph, hard to justify when you can get a bolt on car like Erik / Terry etc to run 11.9 (ish) in N/A form. Just a thought..

[Bermudablue]

Thanks guys.All good replies.
My mind is made up
H/C package for me.The grunty sound,consistency......
Thanks for your replies
Yep i want a tough sounding car

[nirvana]

your making a wise decision its good that you are listening to people on here.
trust me you will get used to it sooner than you think and that money will go down the drain.
like some have said listen to sonny's advice you won't go wrong he's not out there just for the dollar, customer satisfaction means more to him ive seen it.

[35R]

If I can offer my two cents. PM sent also

Tony,

I personally would go the heads and cam path over the PD for a few reasons:

The heads and cam package will perform more or less the same day in and day out, summer or winter, night or day. Having never actually fitted the PD I sold mine back to CAPA brand new for a loss due to 'my' (I stress my not everyone's) dissatisfaction with the marketing and promises made to 'me', I cannot conclusively comment how the PD goes on a hot summers day, but I would almost bet a lefty that the similarly priced H/C combo on the same vehicle would have its number - What do you think Dunc ;)

The PD is a basic entry level FI setup designed to improve performance on a stocker and IMO it would do a fantastic job of this. For those that remember the difference the first time their car was tuned compared to std tune. I dont believe it is suited to a well setup bolt on car ie full exhaust and intake perhaps TB. Using ball park numbers here - 190rwkW for a stock LS1 with exhaust, 240rwkW with MAFless tune 260-280rwkW for street cam (220 ish duration) and heads and 300+rwKW for a little crankier setup (230+ duration) with heads

All that said I feel that the PD is backing you into a bit of a corner and frankly I may get flamed for this but a 2 bar setup should not be tuned on anything but a 2 bar MAP sensor and tune - I believe it can be done sucessfully and safely but it is still a compromise using a 1 Bar setup

In summary, if you wish to have a 270ish rwkW car under average weather conditons that may suffer quite a bit in the heat - am speculating here anyone can chime in here and that is as far as you would ever want to go then spend your $5-6000 and have a well tamed FI streeter with more than enough punch, just make sure you get over the fact that you need injectors and tune for the package to be 'right'.

Alternative is the heads and cam package that isn't as well tamed, but oozes character and performance under all conditions, probably costs a little less, no insurance issues (if you in fact have any to start with) and provided it is tuned correctly will not use much more fuel than the PD.

PD Pros

- It is blown:D
- It is very well mannered
- Can be removed relatively easily

PD Cons

- Basically you're at a power limit
- Will suffer at least somewhat in the heat
- $$$
- Insurance ??

H/C Pros

- Sounds as good as laying one on Jessica Alba
- More character than Robin Williams on Speed
- As awesome as Mr T (can't get more awesome than that)
- Cam comes on strong and stays til redline
- Heads boost low down torque immensely
- True all weather performance
- Still have a plethora of choices if you want 'more'

H/C Cons

- Fuel consumption
- Missus may not like to drive it anymore (maybe that's a pro :p )
- Not really able to be removed if you sell the car....why would you want to


That's all I can think of at the moment. I am trying to be as impartial as possible and serious apart from a couple of DH:stupid: comments. In all honesty it comes down to what you want. If you want FI and want the performance of a small/mild cam with stock manners and never want to go any further go PD, otherwise go with the tried and true.

Worst case scenario is you dont want to end up with the old 'if only' syndrome fit the PD, tune it try it either like it and keep it or rip it off and sell it and lose about $2000 through tune and depreciation and then go H/C at least you will know for yourself or perhaps try and find someone with a kit and go for a ride.

Hope this was of some help

Keep us posted

Luke

Excellent post luke, very informative.

As someone who has gone down both paths I would suggest the H/C (details in mentioned threads elsewhere). If you are hell bent on FI perhaps look at the great value turbo kits that have since been released.

[RedVYIISS]

Some very good advice there.

As I see it, probs with the Gen PD kit are lack of an upgrade path, likely failure of the power steering pump, and belts that break.

I love my turbo, and it suits my requirements, though it wouldn't suit everyone..... who'd want 500 plus rwHp in a car that can drive like a stocker with fuel economy that can approach a stockers!!!!

Seriously, you need to think about your driving habits, what you want from your car, and where you may want to go in 12 months time. If you do things once and have a planned upgrade path you'll save a lot of money in the long run.

[Brockfan05]

Really good, informative posts guys, I for one appreciate it as I am at the commencement stage for my car mods. In particular the lack of BS is very refreshing - my thanks to all.:D

[RedVYIISS]

Really good, informative posts guys, I for one appreciate it as I am at the commencement stage for my car mods. In particular the lack of BS is very refreshing - my thanks to all.:D

Oh good.. I must have kept out of this thread.... apparently it contains no BS.....

[Brockfan05]

Oh good.. I must have kept out of this thread.... apparently it contains no BS.....

Apparently :lmao:

[Bermudablue]

Went and seen Sonny today to make a desicion.
The only desicion made was to fit a 3200 yank stall next tuesday
before the LS1 private day.
Still scratching my head on the powerdyne.

[cosmo vyss]

Went and seen Sonny today to make a desicion.
The only desicion made was to fit a 3200 yank stall next tuesday
before the LS1 private day.
Still scratching my head on the powerdyne.

Obviously you have heard a heap of negatives and a few positives about this kit. In the end its your money and your choice. Remember its just a bolt on piece of kit and can be removed and re-sold if you don't like it. I think one of the other forum members did this and lost a little bit of money.
If you are unsure chuck it on and give it a whirl, as i said before if you don't like take it off. At least this way you have a definate and reliable opinion on this thing yourself. Opinion being your own.

JB

[BOMI]

Went and seen Sonny today to make a desicion.
The only desicion made was to fit a 3200 yank stall next tuesday
before the LS1 private day.
Still scratching my head on the powerdyne.


Good stuff, keep us informed on the results on the dyno and the 1/4 with the YANK 3200.

I imported 6 last year and was going to put a SS3600 on but didnt after a big speeding fine.

So yeah, keen to see the results.

Troy :)

[lautray]

H/C will get my vote if cam only is anything to go by. After getting a cam recently, cant believe i waited this long. Russo heads to go on at end of month, so should be an awesome combo.

[Bermudablue]

Good stuff, keep us informed on the results on the dyno and the 1/4 with the YANK 3200.

I imported 6 last year and was going to put a SS3600 on but didnt after a big speeding fine.

So yeah, keen to see the results.

Troy :)

This will be interesting Troy
bog stock....Full exhaust,3.7's,3200 stall and 221rwkw.
Cant wait to take it down the 1/4.
I will report on what the stall does after fitting to see where max torque lies in the curve.

[Bermudablue]

Made up my mind yesterday at WSID in the stifling heat.
A cam is to be thrown in with springs at the very least.Then i'll take it from there.

[lautray]

Made up my mind yesterday at WSID in the stifling heat.
A cam is to be thrown in with springs at the very least.Then i'll take it from there.

Excellent choice. I would like to see a p/d do 24 runs literally back-to-back in 90 minutes & 41* heat.

[Quadcams]

Y
EDIT: To sum up for you Tony, fastest E/T on a PD kit that I'm aware of is 12.1 @ 118mph, hard to justify when you can get a bolt on car like Erik / Terry etc to run 11.9 (ish) in N/A form. Just a thought..
Is that the best a LS1 has done with a P/D kit to date?

What boost does LS1 P/D kit run?

[35R]

Is that the best a LS1 has done with a P/D kit to date?

What boost does LS1 P/D kit run?

Those Powerdyne runs about 5 or 6 pounds, kind of makes intercooling a waste of time. However i would hazard a guess that 12.1 was with water injection and a smaller pulley, plus (probably) a few of the usual bolt-on goodies. By the time you spend incremental money with the powerdyne (+injectors +exhaust +pulley +water injection.. etc) you would be close to turbo money i reckon..

[SSUte01]

AFAIK and don't hold to the wall about this, but is was an A4, dunno about stall, 4.11s, water/meth injection, smaller pulley and all usual bolt-ons made ~285rwkW which is very respectable as is the time. I do not know the conditions of the run either. Credit where credit is due however

[Bermudablue]

Ok its all settled....Cam,921's,pushrods,UDP are going in.Just waiting on all the gear to turn up.Dont know about injectors yet but more than likely.
Yep its an agressive cam,hence the 921's.
I'll be chasing high 11's with this setup.Hopefully i will have to go and get myself an ANDRA licence:)....cant wait!

[BOMI]

Noice mate very Noice :thumbs:

I reckon you'll see high 11's no worries IMHO.

Nice spings to, hard core, I guess you need them with a bigish cam.

Looking forward to seeing how this one go's.


Troy :)

[DaveHAT]

Ok its all settled....Cam,921's,pushrods,UDP are going in.Just waiting on all the gear to turn up.Dont know about injectors yet but more than likely.
Yep its an agressive cam,hence the 921's.
I'll be chasing high 11's with this setup.Hopefully i will have to go and get myself an ANDRA licence:)....cant wait!

Great news Tony, but I wouldn't think you'd need a big CAM and 921's to run a high 11 in a stalled auto.

Your stall should make it a shoe in but I'd be Uber keen to know the specs in the CAM if it requires the use of 921 valve springs. :)

[BOMI]

921's are heavier duty and last longer.

Apparently 918's need or should be replced every 20 000 km or there abouts (so I have read elsware)

Troy :thumbs:

[Sonny@AutoWerks]

Great news Tony, but I wouldn't think you'd need a big CAM and 921's to run a high 11 in a stalled auto.

Your stall should make it a shoe in but I'd be Uber keen to know the specs in the CAM if it requires the use of 921 valve springs. :)

The 921's are going on for reliability,the cam doesnt have to be big to use them :),fast ramp rates = valve springs going softer quicker :),all cams that use fast ramp rates should replace to valve springs every 10 to 20k unless ur using 921's,remember cams are not ment for cruising,but for going down the quarter flat out :)

regards sonny

[DaveHAT]

The 921's are going on for reliability,the cam doesnt have to be big to use them :),fast ramp rates = valve springs going softer quicker :),all cams that use fast ramp rates should replace to valve springs every 10 to 20k unless ur using 921's,remember cams are not ment for cruising,but for going down the quarter flat out :)

regards sonny

Thanks Sonny, I never knew that. I presumed 921's meant big CAM. :)

Question then ... does the same apply in regards to replacing the valve springs for 222/224 CAMS like mine?

i.e. Do the 918s in mine need replacing at regular intervals as you mentioned above?

Cheers.:beer:

[Sonny@AutoWerks]

Thanks Sonny, I never knew that. I presumed 921's meant big CAM. :)

Question then ... does the same apply in regards to replacing the valve springs for 222/224 CAMS like mine?

i.e. Do the 918s in mine need replacing at regular intervals as you mentioned above?

Cheers.:beer:

Dave,

Your cam doesnt have as fast ramp rates as my customs,but minimuim,i would change them at 40000km's on ur one,better to be safe then sorry :)

regards sonny

[Bermudablue]

921's doesn't necessarily mean big cam...Steep yes,as Sonny calls it
"fast ramp rate"

[Sonny@AutoWerks]

Oki Guys,

Heres sneak peak at quicksilvers results after one of my custom cams specifically talored to wat he wanted ,here is a print out of his dyno sheet and video of one of the runs,it made a consistent 273rwkw to 276rwkw depending on temperature of intake and colant as theres safety biult into the tune to retard timing under certain conditions,with the intake tube removed it made a consistent 280rwkw,so this cars thriving for a otr ! enjoy...

http://s80.photobucket.com/player.swf?refURL=/&file=http://vid80.photobucket.com/albums/j187/hsvzclubbie/DSCF1100.flv

http://www.lostmybeer.com/sonny/oil/tony.jpg

[cosmo vyss]

Sonny,

Is there any reason why the torque starts at approx 800 then drops down below 700 and goes back up again. There is also a dip in the mid range. Is that due to the headers?

JB

[Sonny@AutoWerks]

Sonny,

Is there any reason why the torque starts at approx 800 then drops down below 700 and goes back up again. There is also a dip in the mid range. Is that due to the headers?

JB

Jb,

Thats the torque converter,t most auto's dyno graphs start like that,also whle i,m at it,i apoligise as i,ve overlayed tony's graph with "toms" damn their names sound familar ! i will post it up with tonys before run graph in the next few days.

regards sonny

[Bermudablue]

finally back on line after blowing my hardrive:yahoo:
I like the look of that graph Sonny!
Hopefully i can pick it up today and let you's know how it drives later.

[cosmo vyss]

Jb,

Thats the torque converter,t most auto's dyno graphs start like that,also whle i,m at it,i apoligise as i,ve overlayed tony's graph with "toms" damn their names sound familar ! i will post it up with tonys before run graph in the next few days.

regards sonny

Thanks for the info Sonny. I just thought it looked a bit weird and not seeing to many dyno sheets with auto's and stallie I had no idea.

Cheers :beer:

JB

[Bermudablue]

Picked up the SS today and man it goes hard.Very happy with the end result.
Was stuck in traffic all the way home but car was well behaved.
Should get into the 11's with this one:woohoo: Its going to take a few days to get used to the power.I havent had the courage to give her a big bootful yet:burnout:but it will come!

[Quadcams]

Picked up the SS today and man it goes hard.Very happy with the end result.
Was stuck in traffic all the way home but car was well behaved.
Should get into the 11's with this one:woohoo: Its going to take a few days to get used to the power.I havent had the courage to give her a big bootful yet:burnout:but it will come!

Well done mate, must be stoked.

Myself was considering which way to go PD or HC a while back, man Im glad I want the HC way. Drove a mates xr8 with a PD in the heat the other day and you could tell it was suffering badly from the heat.