>POLL< Road saftey and Driver training

[BOMI]

There has been some talk recently, particularly by Skaify, that that speed limits should be raised, road quality lifted and driver training be compulsory in attaining your licence.

Personaly I think that driver training in the areas of different types of Skid control, high speed (100km/h) handling and braking, and finaly road curtisy would do a few things.

One I honestly thinkn it would lower the road toll and;

two, improve, not fix, traffic flow.

Some very simple theory lessons in merging, changing lanes etc would seriously un-F some of our traffic issues.

If you put this training in as mandatory or if you did it it would shave 12 to 18 months off your P's would work, so long as it was not to expensive.

Another incentive would be insurance discounts for those who have undertaken the training.

So, vote in the poll and tell me and the others here at TC what you think.


Cheers,

Bomi

[35R]

but the reason young people (mostly blokes) get into trouble on the roads is because they are high risk takers; they love to do stupid stuff on the roads (face it we've all done it or did it when we were "young and dumb") i just dont think any level of training can curb human nature.

good/relevant training can only help rergardless.

[Brockfan05]

This is a huge issue and the powers (idiots) that be are sweeping it under the carpet and continuing to ream our wallets all in the alleged name of road safety. I believe driver training will help significantly, but I also believe there are way too many drivers out there that just dont give a damn about anyone else, and driver training isnt going to fix their poor attitude.

Skaife was exactly right in the results of the study he put forward, and those turd burglar politicians decided to focus on just one small part - the 140kph highway speed. Now, where I live we are being inundated with mind numbing ads on tv claiming that speed, and ONLY speed is the biggest killer on our roads. Until these people get a clue, we will continue to see unneccessary deaths and injuries on our roads.

My 2c :shitstorm:

[Justin]

I personally don't think it should be called 'driver training' at all. For starters, I'd be calling it "Road Education" and start it in primary school. Being safe on the roads has a whole lot more to do with your attitude behind the wheel than actual driving ability although the two aren't mutually exclusive. The simple fact is that traffic fines do form part of the governmental (emphasis on mental) budget, and they will do what they can to protect that source of income. They do this by building roads that they know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that will support a certain speed limit, and then setting the speed limit some 20km/h lower and fining us relatively small amounts, for small increments over the limit, that allow us to keep our licenses, and allows them the opportunity to fine us over and over. If everyone somehow managed to not get any traffic infringements, lets say for speeding, for a measly 6 months, I guarantee the government wouldn't be shouting out about how many lives they've saved.

I think James May raised this point in one Top Gear episode - if speeding = death, why aren't the fines significantly harsher so as to actually warrant people not ever doing it? Because the government can't afford the loss of income. They'd have to find some other way to make hundreds of millions of dollars from the tax paying public, and that would be to increase taxes in some other area.

[35R]

experience is a great teacher.

anyway what problem are we actually ramping up to solve here exactly?

Death rates on aussie roads have dropped from 26.5 (people dead) per 100,000 population in 1975 to 6.8 people / 100,000 in 2008. Probably less than 5 in 100,000 today. Death rates have been falling practically every year for decades since the 70's - well before they even had speed cameras.

Interestingly the drop in death rates since 1975 with males in the 17-25 year age bracket is greater than 26-39 and 40-59 year olds. One could argue young guys have been improving better than older guys.

In fact the average drop in death rates for 17-21 year olds over the last five years has been -4.1% per year, -1.7% for 26-39 year olds and -1.2% for 40-59 year olds.

All the stats are here:

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/safety/publications/2009/rsr_04.aspx

[GTS Listy]

I did a queensland defensive driver couse when I was 17 and it was bloody great. Loved it and leant a hell of allot. I have been driving since I was 7 on my own in cars on the farm and elsewhere and after doing the course it was a real wake up.

Problem is it did not stop me near wiping out me and a few mates with a gut full of rum on a huge tree at 200km/h. I got way with it by sheer luck and someone was on my side that night. I stopped drinking and driving and speeding on public roads from that moment on.
Some how if you get the younger people to realise the risk and not have to have the one life or death chance then the toll will drop fast in younger people. How do you do that I simply done know. I tell people my story when I do driving instructing and it seems to hit home.

[BOMI]

Some good points and opinions there, interesting data alos there Dunc.

Keep em coming fellas.


Troy :)

[Desertws6]

Education is the key to driver safety. More education the better!

Dealing with the following.
1. Defensive driving
2. Wet slippery roads
3. Snow covered roads
4. Importance of proper speed for road conditions.
5. Importance of driving a car that is properly maintained and road ready.
6. The importance of traffic signs
7. A little reality check would not hurt either. (consequences)
(Caution graphic links)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQfDB0d6cTI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmHbO_viBIg&feature=related

[hsvredsled]

Excessive speed has never killed anyone.
Its not the speed that kills...its the sudden stop!!!

It is speed differentiation (SD) that kills. Thats why I would not support a 140kph limit because you will still have nanny doing 80kmh, therefore the differentiation is huge. (60kmh)

People do not drive down the road and all of a sudden go onto the wrong side and have head ons. Generally, it is caused by overtaking (again SD) or by changing lanes and again (SD) comes into play. What we need is not to lower speed limits, but ensure everyone is going the same speed appropriate for the roads. This may mean raising the limit from 50ks to 65ks in some areas.

I have seen countless times people getting the blame for accidents when in actual fact it is the driver going at Granma speed which is at fault.

Scenario.
Granny in left lane of two laned highway doing 60km in a 100kmh zone. Left lane about to end. Granny leaves it until the last minute to merge right. Joe Citizen doing 100kmh collects Grandma in the rear, or worse, swerves to the incorrect side of the road and has a head on. Who is at fault? Joe Citizen is. Speed differentiation is the cause.

[BOMI]

Bump Bumity Bump :D



Troy

[DaveHAT]

Driving training is a great thing but I'm not convinced it would make a definite impact on road safety.

If someone ever invents a way to teach personal insight and life experience when it comes to driving and road safety ... they'll be very rich indeed.

[35R]

Driving training is a great thing but I'm not convinced it would make a definite impact on road safety.

If someone ever invents a way to teach personal insight and life experience when it comes to driving and road safety ... they'll be very rich indeed.

Agree with that entirely; no amount of training is going to stop kids, well, being kids really.

[SSUte01]

Driving training is a great thing but I'm not convinced it would make a definite impact on road safety.

If someone ever invents a way to teach personal insight and life experience when it comes to driving and road safety ... they'll be very rich indeed.

Agree with that entirely; no amount of training is going to stop kids, well, being kids really.

This is topic that I have had many heated arguments over and I must admit I am surprised that so many hold this opinion, do I agree with you both that life experience and insight is a massive bonus and that we'll all test limits at some point, absolutely, but I believe quite strongly that training and education would have a measureable and signicant impact on road incidents.

Let's use flying a plane, controlling aircraft, owning and operating a firearm and the list goes on as examples, all require training and education before you're allowed to legally undertake those activites and yet to drive a car on our roads requires essentially zero training and education. I can hear people kicking off already, but what training on the physics of stopping distances, reaction times, inertia, following distances, momentum, handling of a car, steering, braking, emergency braking, accelerating do we get - sweet fuck all. Instead we get pathetic training on the road laws and reverse parallel parking - pass the piss poor test and off you go, licence to kill. To back all this theory up we need structured practical training, drag strip, circuit, skid pan, dirt/loose surfaces as well as real world training ie supervised on the roads etc all before you get your licence.

I guess I am a hypocrit as I too have no formal training in all those things listed above, but time and 'incidents' have taught me to believe that real driver training and education, right through high school if I had my way, on all those aspects of operating a car, theoretical and practical, not just knowing the road rules, which is also important, would have a significant impact on driver behaviour. Would it happen overnight, nope, it would take a generation, but it would improve. It has taken almost a generation, but slowly I have now noticed that the constant propaganda over the past 15-20 years from various governments that if you follow the red-ringed sign despite all other short-comings you are a safe driver and that exceeeding the speed limit is equivalent to paedaphilia and you the lowest form of scum on Earth. It has been proven in numerous actual studies that speed alone is very low on the list as far as causes of accidents is concerned and that inattention is indeed the highest. How to combat that is through education and training, imo.

Knowledge is power and I distinctly remember an argument with a work colleague, who is quite a cluey bloke overall, who genuinely argued that stopping distances in the wet were exactly that same as the dry and the only variable in that equation is tyre size. I was absolutely amazed that he couldn't see reason through scientific argument (coeff of friction amongst others) so my point (opinion) is that the training required to operate a car is not commensurate with the responsibility of driving a car on the road. Less speed patrols, cameras etc and genuine practical training and thorough education from a fairly young age.

Sorry for long-winded diatribe, but I really think we as a nation need a significant mindset change from speed is the enemy to proper training (practical and theoretical). Will it end all accidents and fatalities, no, but I strongly believe it will improve road safety. I don't see how it can hurt to try.

[BOMI]

This is topic that I have had many heated arguments over and I must admit I am surprised that so many hold this opinion, do I agree with you both that life experience and insight is a massive bonus and that we'll all test limits at some point, absolutely, but I believe quite strongly that training and education would have a measureable and signicant impact on road incidents.

Let's use flying a plane, controlling aircraft, owning and operating a firearm and the list goes on as examples, all require training and education before you're allowed to legally undertake those activites and yet to drive a car on our roads requires essentially zero training and education. I can hear people kicking off already, but what training on the physics of stopping distances, reaction times, inertia, following distances, momentum, handling of a car, steering, braking, emergency braking, accelerating do we get - sweet fuck all. Instead we get pathetic training on the road laws and reverse parallel parking - pass the piss poor test and off you go, licence to kill. To back all this theory up we need structured practical training, drag strip, circuit, skid pan, dirt/loose surfaces as well as real world training ie supervised on the roads etc all before you get your licence.

I guess I am a hypocrit as I too have no formal training in all those things listed above, but time and 'incidents' have taught me to believe that real driver training and education, right through high school if I had my way, on all those aspects of operating a car, theoretical and practical, not just knowing the road rules, which is also important, would have a significant impact on driver behaviour. Would it happen overnight, nope, it would take a generation, but it would improve. It has taken almost a generation, but slowly I have now noticed that the constant propaganda over the past 15-20 years from various governments that if you follow the red-ringed sign despite all other short-comings you are a safe driver and that exceeeding the speed limit is equivalent to paedaphilia and you the lowest form of scum on Earth. It has been proven in numerous actual studies that speed alone is very low on the list as far as causes of accidents is concerned and that inattention is indeed the highest. How to combat that is through education and training, imo.

Knowledge is power and I distinctly remember an argument with a work colleague, who is quite a cluey bloke overall, who genuinely argued that stopping distances in the wet were exactly that same as the dry and the only variable in that equation is tyre size. I was absolutely amazed that he couldn't see reason through scientific argument (coeff of friction amongst others) so my point (opinion) is that the training required to operate a car is not commensurate with the responsibility of driving a car on the road. Less speed patrols, cameras etc and genuine practical training and thorough education from a fairly young age.

Sorry for long-winded diatribe, but I really think we as a nation need a significant mindset change from speed is the enemy to proper training (practical and theoretical). Will it end all accidents and fatalities, no, but I strongly believe it will improve road safety. I don't see how it can hurt to try.

Not being biest as this thread was started by me, but, Luke thats one of the best replies to a thread I have seen in a long long time here on TC if not the best IMPO. Thanks for posting it up.

You stated diatribe, nah, not at all, passion and opinion formed into one to say what you said.

I could not agree more with you mate, and I could'nt believe that guy thought stopping distances would be the same in the wet :eek: Let me guess, Fast jet pilot?

Mate, thanks again for the reply.

Troy :cheers:

P.S. Good to hear from you :D When are you back?

[GTS Listy]

Years ago but as part of the training to drive a military vehicle like a landrover and a 4.5t unimog it was 6 weeks full time 6 days a week course at pucka driver training centre. We learned heaps of stuff and got stacks of hours behind the wheel in skidpans, off road and all sorts of stuff

So what you say. Most military blokes that get killed in cars are fully trained to warzoo on driving responibly and correctly and how to drive in general in a emergency situation.
No matter how much training you get it will not stop the young blokes behavior behind the wheel. Add in beers and it is worse.

Attitude and respect is the king. Many young blokes in the dangerous driving age just can not comprehend the dangers involved.

Training is good but I think it is better to just get them to the circuits, drags, motorkhanas, burnout pads, skid pans and let them go nuts and get it out of their systems.
The first thing the young blokes will use a excuse will be it costs too much which is normally a BS excuse as then they may be on display for others criticism. There is a thread on ls1 about some bloke having a go at a skid pad in his station wagon and it did not have the get up to spin and drift properly. The blokes on there hammered him and his car
To me, this is piss poor and a fine example of someone having a go off the streets and just having fun. So his car was not up to speed, who friggen cares. Regardless of who he is or attitude of the bloke good dam on him. They say he talked up his car and all the rest. I bet a bunch of his mates would not have the nads to put up and were in the crowd having a shot at him.

There is seperate thread about the wagon in ls1 somewhere but the video is a big further down. (not the corvette bloke. (no comment on that)

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=130014&highlight=YouTube-+Holden+Scene+Skidpan

Few more links about poor example of young people at play in cars and the people around supporting then.
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=133158&highlight=YouTube-+burnout!

[hsvredsled]

I was disgusted at some of the comments on that thread. Comments like "Its just a burnout" really get to me.

Reason.

Not so long ago I was at Bathurst for work. I got a call from my frantic wife saying that a car had just landed in my front yard after a burnout around the corner gone wrong. Mind you, I am the 4th house up from the corner so this was some pretty heavy skid. I was 300 plus ks away and could do nothing.

As I type I am gazing out the front at my nine year old kicking his footy. If he was there at the time he would be DEAD. No question. DEAD.

Many of you are parents. How do ya reckon when I feel when I hear people say "Its just a skid"

I will post a little more later when I settle down.

[WOMBIE]

I'm hearing you sled and if I'm out the front of my place I act swiftly in relation to said dick heads doing 'skids' up and down our street......just ask the Possum how's Wombie's 6 iron is going these days :eek:


Hand on heart I had all intentions of using it at the local golf course after purchasing my clubs but as usual I improvised and found an alternative use for it....not saying what though :hide:


Back on topic and I'm with Dave in that I don't think that driver training would make an impact on our roads because as Listy touched on,you've got to change driver 'attitude' for our roads to become safer.

Also until our governments come clean with themselves and realise that we need more of a police presence on our roads and less revenue raising cameras then the carnage will continue I'm afraid.

[BOMI]

Ballys and stupid for doing a burnout in such a crowded public place.

Loved the 6 point turn the cop did.

I would have stopped right there, got out and cuffed him, fuck the traffic!!

Thanks for posting Tony :cheers:



Troy :)

[GTS Listy]

Too add and condolences to the family. Another poor military bloke died on the roads yesterday. That is a few military guys died on the roads this year at least. Each year either cars or bikes and these military guys keep taking risks and most would have the driver/rider training the military provides.
Up here it is a 2 day riders course to get your Ls and then another 2 day to get your Ps. They do all the defensive training, learning road position etc. Very good course from what I heard. Mind young most military guys would have the bike licenses from down south so it would be similar down there I guess.

I failed my bike test in Qld many moons ago. I blame the 250cc bike being to dam small. A 6 ft 9 140kg big huah on a 250cc ZZR. Looked frigged stupid and the assessor comments were I did not look confident on bikes. Little did they know I have been riding bikes since I was 5 and at the time I went for the test owned a ZZR1100. I had to borrow the 250 and was not used to such a small bike. I sorted it the next time

I have personally seem some madness on bikes and cars on the roads over the last few weeks. The cars most had P plates on the back. One was a bike pulling atleast 200 in a built up area around corners. It was not a quick stint as I heard the bike on it hard for a good 10 seconds after it went past.

[BOMI]

Listy, I was speaking to my best mate up there today and he worked with the guy.

Seems for now that the bus turned in front of him and he (RIP) was not at fault.

Thats neither here nor there now as a young Asutralian soldier is dead from a MVA.

I have my bike licence and I agree with you mate, I have seen some madness by bike, both my mates and randoms. Its so easy to go from 0-100 or 200 on a bike, a twist of the right hand and bamo your there. What is sometimes bad for good riders are shit drivers. Anyway... Id like to see a pic of you on a ZZR 250 mate, it would look like a little mini bike :lol:

Cheers,


Troy

[SSUte01]

Mate, thanks again for the reply.

Troy :cheers:

P.S. Good to hear from you :D When are you back?

No worries, glad I've finally found someone who agrees with me :)
Not a pilot either, a controller but that's neither here nor there.
Don't know exactly, you know how these things work, but I anticipate within a year or so, and I am very much looking forward to it.




Back on topic and I'm with Dave in that I don't think that driver training would make an impact on our roads because as Listy touched on,you've got to change driver 'attitude' for our roads to become safer.

Also until our governments come clean with themselves and realise that we need more of a police presence on our roads and less revenue raising cameras then the carnage will continue I'm afraid.

Couldn't agree more that attitudes need to change, but I am not just talking about a day course here and there and call it training, the only way to change attitudes is over time and through indoctrination of what's 'right' which is why I would like to see this education start from high school and be taught right throughout including both theory and practical training, that is the only way attitudes will change. We have seen it work with the speeding campaigns over the past decade or two, the vast majority of the public firmly believe that speeding is the be all and end all of safe motoring.

What would more police on the road improve, would they police the 'bad attitude' or just police people's ignorance? I disagree that an increased police presence would do anything at all to the road toll or the attitudes of drivers, which we all seem to agree is the largest problem. Police poorly educated and trained drivers as much as you like wont change the attitude, it will likely result in more people being caught but a reduction in deaths and accidents I guess we disagree there.

I will use the UK as a case in point, UK and Australia in recent study were found to have as close as the same deaths per 100,000 people for the sake of the argument (I don't have stats on me but it was virtually identical at around) and yet living in the UK for two years now and covering quite a few miles with virtually zero police presence statistics show Aus has (basically) the same fatality rate on the roads. This is despite UK being far more crowded, and apart from the motorways, their road network and drving conditions are terrible - roads too narrow, many, many, many blind corners, unprepared roads in poor weather, the speed limits are advisory and almost never enforced (except clearly marked cameras) and so on. So, compared to the UK, Australia has a massive police presence, with overall better driving conditions, drive slower on average compared to the posted limit (which is less in Aus) and yet we as Aussies are no better off when it comes to road deaths. To me, I agree it boils down to attitudes and I still maintain the only way to have a cultural shift in attitudes is through education and training over a long period of time when people are impressionable ie high school.

For the record I have never been randomly breath tested in the UK (I don't drink and drive anyway but not the point), anecdotally I cannot find anyone I know or work with that has been randomly breath tested, I've never seen a random speed checking station in my county and have only seen it once since living here (yesterday in fact on the A1(M) motorway) and even then I am not sure he was checking speed as I saw no equipment, rare enforcement of the speed limit, rain, hail or snow (and we get the lot) is clearly labelled speed cameras or if it a mobile setup it has to be signposted in advance (similar to ACT I believe), and if it is enforced by the unmarked highway patrol cars which I am sure it is, it is extremely rare as I regularly get passed on the motorways and dual carriage ways when doing an indicated 70-75 mph (70mph limit) by cars that I estimate are doing 90+ mph and the general concenus is 80mph is the acceptable limit where no-one will bat an eyelid

Condolences to the family of yet another victim of our roads, I am sorry to hear that especially as military person I can relate.

I guess that is the beauty of opinions, we all have them and unlikely to ever agree but I think we have nothing to lose and everything to gain by putting as much effort into changing the attitudes of tomorrow's drivers through training and education, learning from others as well as trying to change today's drivers as the effort that has gone into 'the don't speed and you are the best and safest driver on the planet' campaigns that continue to this very day that statistically at least has proven largely unsuccessful, superior technology and infrastructure IMO have had a greater impact.

At least we all want the same outcome :)

[BLK 1T]

Good post mate - leaves a question unanswered though.
How does Aus v UK driver training (licensing) compare?

Phil

[GTS Listy]

Well the misses and I was thinking about this last night and came up with a dam fine solution.

I am actually going to put a letter and other stuff togeather and send it to the local polies. I know them via work so pretty easy for me to say hi.

I will do up the letter and post it up. I personally think this is a solution and a way forward instead of just saying what do you do about the young driver and dieing/killing and hooning in cars and bikes.
I will post it Monday after I drop off to the polies. It would be workable in the NT easy without any government out of pocket money and possibly with some small government inputs ($20 per driver) for down south race tracks as they are privately owned. Up here the NT gov owns all of hidden valley.

Bear with me but I think this could work and work in the real world and offer a real solution

[SSUte01]

Good post mate - leaves a question unanswered though.
How does Aus v UK driver training (licensing) compare?

Phil

Well I cannot conclusively answer through experience, but I can answer what work colleagues, friends etc have had to complete to gain a UK licence (incidentally if I want to swap my Aussie licence for a UK one, all I need to do is fill in a form and hand in the old licence, no testing theoretical or practical) and that is not dissimilar to Aus, theoretical test, practical test where you prove you know the basic road rules and can park, three-point turn and other really useful safety-related skills.

So, from my limited exposure I would say they are close to par, perhaps Aus slightly more stringent with the introduction of 120hr log books and other uncontrolled initiatives.



Well the misses and I was thinking about this last night and came up with a dam fine solution.

I am actually going to put a letter and other stuff togeather and send it to the local polies. I know them via work so pretty easy for me to say hi.

I will do up the letter and post it up. I personally think this is a solution and a way forward instead of just saying what do you do about the young driver and dieing/killing and hooning in cars and bikes.
I will post it Monday after I drop off to the polies. It would be workable in the NT easy without any government out of pocket money and possibly with some small government inputs ($20 per driver) for down south race tracks as they are privately owned. Up here the NT gov owns all of hidden valley.

Bear with me but I think this could work and work in the real world and offer a real solution

Good on you, Tony. :aussie:

To make the effort is half the battle so I look forward to hearing how you go. Hats off to you.


To all, does anyone know where modified cars/blatant hooning (I hate that term but you get the point) fit into road fatalities, I don't know but from old statistics (~15 years) it was 9th or 10th most common cause for road fatalities. I would be curious to read more recent data.

[BOMI]

Modified and or hooning stats would be a very interesing read indeed. Me thinks that it would be a low percentile.



Troy :cheers: